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Old November 3, 2018, 02:40 PM   #101
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Because I want a new one. I have a older one and decided I want to get something new for once instead of someone else's hand me downs like I have since I started this hobby.
Uh, okay. Personally, I fail to think of a used anything in Mint Condition as "someone else's hand me downs".

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Also I have no idea how to get the FFL thing set up. It isn't like Amazon where i can burn my credit card and poof it ends up on my doorstep. I heard it is a pain in the butt process with lots of mailing crap back and forth between myself, GB and an FFL.
I've got news for you, buying a new firearm of any type will not result in it "ends up on my doorstep". This ain't rocket science. 1. You contact the seller and get his address. 2. You go to your local gun store and get a copy of their FFL. 3. You send payment and the copy of the FFL to the address in Step 1. 4. When the firearm arrives at your local gun store, you do the same background check that you would have to do with a new firearm. 5. You take said firearm home and do not leave it on the doorstep. It's that easy.

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Old November 3, 2018, 02:42 PM   #102
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Exactly! Now i personally think they should redesign the actions to be easier and cheaper to make so they can stay around longer but then you would get more people complaining about it..


Now @DPriss and @USSR how do the new M66/M67 series of guns stack up? Same problems or are they ok?


Guess i should go look at a Rhino, those look cool.
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Old November 3, 2018, 02:46 PM   #103
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"Some folks, if given a bar of gold, will complain that it was too heavy, too shiny or that they thought they deserved two bars instead of one. Certain folks just love to complain, they HAVE to complain, if they need to they will make up issues and find faults... it's part of their soul, their very essence of being." (My Grandfather, around 1980).

Gramps was right. Lol!!!
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Old November 3, 2018, 02:48 PM   #104
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@USSR not really that easy mate when you buy on line. There is no mailing a payment when it is done over the net.

Oh and at no point did i expect it to go to my door step. I was using that as an example. Not sure why you chose that to use against me. I am stupid but not that stupid.
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Old November 3, 2018, 02:56 PM   #105
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There is no mailing a payment when it is done over the net.
Au Contraire! Payment by money order or certified check is done all the time. Have done it dozens of times myself.

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Old November 3, 2018, 03:20 PM   #106
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Of course we've talked to S&W.
They don't care.
They're selling product at current levels, no incentive to change the business model.

If you look on the S&W Forum you'll find many people who dislike current quality.
And those are dedicated Smith fans.

Your "function first" is what the market's leaning toward.
Look at all the cheap-to-produce plastic pistols, and the increase in plastic-stocked "economy-grade" rifle designs now out.

In many cases, they CAN function quite well.
IF function's all you want, you share a great percentage of today's market.

I've got, as I've mentioned elsewhere, two Remington .308s here, both 16-inch barrels.
One's a $2000+ semi-custom build on a 700 with McMillan stock, Timney trigger, and an $800 optic.
The other's a bone stock 783 with factory plastic stock & a $150 optic, total Package around $600 or thereabouts.


The 783 shoots within an inch on average of what the 700 does at 100 yards.
You'd be quite happy with it.

I know the difference, and while there's nothing wrong with the 783, I know the 700 has a better trigger, a stronger stock, a stronger optic mount, a better optic for harsh weather & longer distances, and so on.


You would be more concerned with function ("Three-inches at 100 is good enough for me once a year on the hunt") and price.
I'd be more concerned with overall quality & endurance.
I'll pay extra to get that, you won't.


The 27 I mentioned was merely the most recent example of QC issues I've had here.
The lesser-grade topstrap "checkering" would be common to the current model, the barrel issues may or may not be found in other 27 samples.

The front-end locking methods being incorporated into certain models remains to be seen regarding effectiveness.

On one recent 66 snub, it was near useless.
I could pop it slightly out of lockup by pushing the cylinder sideways. Could not on an older 66 snub with ejector rod lockup.


The K-Frame magnum forcing cone issue was a flat milled section at the bottom of the cone that thinned its wall there, and created cracks with hot 125s.
That's been addressed with new K-Frame .357s by eliminating that thin flat, and re-positioning some other dimensional relationships.

S&W was shipping early new 66-8 snubs with almost no forcing cones. Thicker cone walls, but bullet shaving.
Gain in one area, loss in another.

I've seen poorly cut crowns on other recent Smiths, and badly cut cones.
The front sight rocking back & forth in its single-pinned base is also a sign of deteriorating quality on the 27 I have here.
The '62 sample uses two pins in a finely polished base, blade's in solid.

MIMS have long been debated. Yes- in the beginning they did achieve a rep for breaking in some makers' guns.

They are, when done right, usable.
They are not equal to forged in solidity or strength.
For most gun applications at S&W, they are adequate.

They are not used because they're better, they're used because they're cheaper.

In fairness to S&W, they've been creeping across Ruger's product lines, too.
We won't see them leave.
We don't have to like them.
My gunsmith doesn't, and a former S&W PC guy told me some time ago that MIM parts were not the equal of their forged parts.
I'll leave MIM at that.

Buy new if you can be happy with it.
I'm not trying to talk anybody out of one, just addressing the issue raised.
Denis
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Old November 3, 2018, 03:33 PM   #107
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Denis has addressed the quality issue well. As long as the young guys are unaware of the quality that was previously available, and have the "gotta be new" attitude, S&W will continue to supply this market. But just remember, that finely made collectible piece from years back will appreciate in value, while the same cannot be said for the current guns.

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Old November 3, 2018, 03:34 PM   #108
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@DPriss I appreciate the information you provided. I do not however, appreciate the disrespect and condescension in your post towards me. It is wholly uncalled for considering I was in no way attacking you. Especially that Bovine excrement about me being ok with a bolt action that shots 3". I NEVER ONCE said I would not spend money on quality product or parts. I am and have been arguing that reducing the costs is what it takes to keep these guns on the market. I would hate if snub nose revolvers were the only ones that stuck around for people to buy new.

Yes new is important as you never know what you are getting with used and used things can come with problems even if it looks new. A lot of people don't want to deal with the potential for problems with used parts.

I have never shot any NEW Smiths. Every gun I have fired from them, or have owned has been made around 1968. I come off as defending the cost reduction measures as it is not an inherently evil or wrong process. How else could they have reduced manufacturing costs with out compromising on quality short of going to China or some other 3rd world country and using slave labor?

I genuinely curious. You are clearly more of a mechanical expert on these guns then I am, so how do you reduce the cost of manufacture with out sacrificing quality?
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Old November 3, 2018, 03:35 PM   #109
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How can you say they appreciate well when on GB I just saw old m10s for 300$?
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Old November 3, 2018, 03:38 PM   #110
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Mord,
I'll address your PM here, for others to see the clarification.

I do not denigrate hobbiests.
I used the term, after you brought up hobby, to differentiate between somebody who buys a gun mostly to have and/or play with as opposed to a professional user or a guy who buys one to actually be a working gun. Working gun can be cop, hunter, farmer.

Hobbiests, I think, are arguably what's driving the market today.
Aside from the collector with multiple classics, I would loosely define a hobbiest as one who acquires multiple recreational guns for fun, to play with, to swap for the Next Big Thing, and to acquire most of his or her stock of guns as non-workers. Along with the #Igottagunme2! element.

I won't argue the definition, it's loose.
And I don't denigrate hobbiests in saying that frequently the standard of expectations may be somewhat lower than with either a collector, professional, or owner of a working gun expected to be built for the long haul with a certain quality level & feature set.

In my case, I've made a living with guns since 1972 in one way or another.
I know quality, I will have quality, even if it's a hassle to get it on occasion.
That's the basis for my statements here, and by all means- get a new Smith if that'll satisfy you.
No sarcasm, no denigration.
Denis
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Old November 3, 2018, 03:42 PM   #111
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How can you say they appreciate well when on GB I just saw old m10s for 300$?
mordis,

You've got to read: "finely made collectible piece from years back will appreciate in value". There is nothing "collectible" about the Model 10, they are a very basic revolver that they made in the millions. Although I don't know DPris, he is giving you the scoop and trying to help you. I would listen to his sage advice.

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Old November 3, 2018, 03:44 PM   #112
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I'm an old guy, and while I prefer the old style bluing and no lock, the new S&W's are stronger, MIM parts and all. I own a number of vintage S&W's, as well as the newer ones. I'll put my new 29-10 4" up against any one of your old 4" 29-2's, and we will see which one wears out first with hot loads. And hole and all, the new ones are very pretty! We all have a right to our opinions, but to act condescending towards those we perceive as "new" or younger, less experienced shooters, is wrong.

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Old November 3, 2018, 04:04 PM   #113
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Mord- that's the whole point: you CAN'T, as a rule, reduce the cost of manufacture SIGNIFICANTLY without sacrificing quality.
S&W is an outstanding example of that.

I'm honestly not knocking you, guy, but your statement about never knowing what you're getting used and things can come with problems even if they look new was the best laugh I've had all day.

Every single new Smith revolver I've had through here in the past 15 years has had something wrong with it.
EVERY SINGLE ONE.

Canted front sights/over-turned barrels, loose front sights, bad crowns, forcing cones that spit, forcing cones that failed GO gauges, grip panels that didn't fit with gaps between wood & frame, timing issues, badly milled chambers, ignition issues, and so on.

That's what I've been trying to tell you- your chances of better quality out of the box are BETTER with a 30-year-old NOS unfired sample of a given model than they are with a new one.


I have exhibited no disrespect whatever toward you.
I have given you the perspective of a guy who's lived & worked with guns for over 45 years, and who's been a peripheral, but involved, part of the firearms industry in direct contact with these makers for going on three decades.

That in no way makes me superior in & of myself to you, but it does give me a broader foundation for my opinions & statements about quality in the industry at large.

And it ensures that my views are not from a "hobbiest".
Yours are.
With which there is NOTHING wrong, it merely means we see things from different viewpoints, which brings us right back to "go get yourself a new Smith if you can be happy with one".
Denis
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Old November 3, 2018, 04:54 PM   #114
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I'm going to try to load a picture of my new and old S&W N frames... Old ones on the left, new ones on the right. Vintage ones have a deeper blue, newer ones are stronger and more durable, although I'm positive others will debate this. All are pretty, barrels and sights on new ones are aligned perfectly and REAL S&W's as far as I am concerned and built with American pride and backed by a full warranty. Are there Lemons? Yes, of course. Just like with Colt, Glock, Sig or Cadillac... lemons happen, hence full warrantys from reputable companies. S&W backs their products. There were lemons back in the old days too, any collector will verify that. We just hear more about them now due to the net. And then there is Don Lemon from CNN... well, let's not go there! LOL!! Prettier without a lock...? Yes, I agree 100 percent. But these new guns feel great in the hand, shoot perfectly / Accurately and look pretty sharp. No "canted barrels or muzzel crown issues" either. Wood / checkering are very nice. I guess I lucked out on my new N frames and 638, 642 (no lock), as they were all PERFECT. I ignore the locks, never turned them nor had any issues either with hot loads. I can always buy a plug and remove them if I so chose. Smith and Wesson is a good company employing American craftsmen. Now, if they will just address my pet peeve and return to the old blue card board boxes (I despise plastic), and include a cleaning rod like they used too.
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Old November 3, 2018, 05:04 PM   #115
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I'm going to go eat a sandwich.
Denis
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Old November 3, 2018, 05:33 PM   #116
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The current crop of S&Ws are decent guns. I'm sure if you went over the guns from 50 years ago you could find something to complain about on every single one made and we would be reminiscing over the pre-war guns that were from the "good old days".

I bought a 929 online late last year and it'll shoot on par with any of my 40 to 100 year K-38's, model 27, model 14, model 15, etc... the process to buy from classic firearms was as simple as selecting them as my FFL on their website and having it mailed there. Most large online sellers have a database of local FFLs already in there system to make check out as easy as possible. If buying through gun broker it'll take a couple extra steps but it's still a simple process.

I bought a 460 from Scheels earlier this year and not have any complaints. Scheels will price match online dealers which knocked about $200 off the gun. It's nice to be able to see the gun in person before shelling out $700 to $1200.
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Old November 4, 2018, 03:25 AM   #117
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People don't overwhelmingly hate the new ones with a passion. It's just that a lot of people with experience with older ones don't care for the newer ones.

Speaking of... Does anyone think the current Ruger revolvers aren't as nice as they used to be? Comparing the current SP101 with one from 20ish years ago, the older one seems a bit better. It's not just the MIM parts on the new one. The older one seems to have a better fit or tighter tolerances. I realize the old one has been broken in but even after a professional trigger job, the new one is pretty bad by comparison. I don't have a direct comparison available but having shot a new GP100 recently, I remember the trigger being smoother back in the day.
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Old November 4, 2018, 01:38 PM   #118
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Ruger's in the same spot, but not quite to the same degree.
They typically don't take the time they used to before getting the guns out the door.
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Old November 4, 2018, 05:33 PM   #119
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What kind of a sandwich did you have?

Just comparing my 1993 SP101 with my new 2017 production one, there are no differences in fit & finish (both very good) and trigger pull.
The bottom of the rubber grip on the new one however, has a small but noticeable rough spot, whereas the old revolver’s rubber grip is smooth.

Have not disassembled either gun to compare the internals side by side though.
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Old November 4, 2018, 06:41 PM   #120
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In the past ten years I've had at least half a dozen new Rugers with problems.
Functional, but not what they used to be.

Bologna.
Denis
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Old November 4, 2018, 10:13 PM   #121
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Mordis,

You need to understand, we old pharts like old stuff. That's what's behind most of this. When we're all dead and gone and our wives or kids have sold off our old guns for half what they're worth, you can find some real bargains and discover what we like so much about S&Ws from the 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s. Just be patient.

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Old November 4, 2018, 10:44 PM   #122
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Quote:
Bologna.
Denis
Back in the 60s when I was a kid a fried balogna and onion sandwich was about as good as it could get.

Edit: I'm sure there's a corollary to S&W build quality somehow. Maybe something to do with MIM blony, if yinz get it.

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Old November 4, 2018, 11:22 PM   #123
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how do you reduce the cost of manufacture with out sacrificing quality?
Why does cost need reduced? I’m willing to pay a fair price, if they are willing to make a fair profit.

Also, cost reduction doesn’t have to come from crappy parts. Managing your people, inventories, logistics and waste streams are where you get a lot of improvements it profitability.
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Old November 5, 2018, 01:08 AM   #124
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WOW! Threads about this subject are getting so much better than all the ones before it. I guess this is a case of new is better.
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Old November 5, 2018, 05:22 AM   #125
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You guys got bologna as kids?? Must have been nice. All I had was Wonder bread and peanut butter.
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