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Old December 6, 2019, 03:32 AM   #51
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the letter is well written and contains some good points and conveys your feeling well, I think.

HOWEVER,
I am of a divided mind on the entire idea of "Sanctuary" anything. On the one hand, I enjoy the irony of using the tactic for our cause as some use it for the illegal immigrant cause, but this is balanced with my feeling that they shouldn't be doing it to begin with, and our side doing it just doesn't sit quite right.

I understand the importance of sending a message, but if the way the message is sent is illegal, does that really help our cause??

OF course there are many different levels involved, and there is a difference between a "we will not help you" and "we will disobey the law".

Always remember the way the established ruling body looks at things. There is a system, which, while it may be difficult, does allow for change.

Quote:
“The bills passed by the General Assembly and signed into law by the governor are binding for our entire Commonwealth and its citizens,” Jones wrote. “The legal precedent we would set by allowing communities to selectively ignore those laws at will is alarming and indicative of the same mindset that nearly one hundred and fifty years ago led this country to dissolve into a civil war.”
(he's a little off on his math because 150 years ago the Civil War had been over for 4 years)

But here's the point, the message they're getting ( or more likely the only message they're willing to accept) is not that they are wrong but that you are willing to defy the law.

And, of course, tis horrid, unethical, illegal and even dishonorable to defy the law, because the law was made all due, correct and proper processes were followed...

if you look at that quote and move back nearly another hundred years, it becomes...

The acts passed by Parliament and carried out by the Crown Governor are binding for our entire Commonwealth and its citizens,

The legal precedent we would set by allowing Colonial communities to selectively ignore those laws at will is alarming and indicative of rebellion against the Crown and treason....

anyone else see a pattern here?

I applaud the good people of your state for their show of solidarity, though I have personal reservations over the Sanctuary idea being the best way to send the message, I won't say you shouldn't use every tool that works.

Do keep in mind the one constant that history teaches,....

There is NEVER any justification for rebellion against lawful authority...
unless you WIN.
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Old December 6, 2019, 07:12 AM   #52
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Does anyone know of this rally for this Monday 9 Dec in Richmond? I know of the one for 20 Jan.

https://support.vatp.org/stopthegungrab/
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Old December 6, 2019, 08:20 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by jrinne0430 View Post
Now at 43 Second Amendment Sanctuary counties, towns, and cities. Need to keep up the pressure and contact your county supervisors. Also, contact your state delegate and senator and let them know that VA will not be controlled by out of touch trans plants and out of state money.
When's the next VA election for state legislature?

Only way to 'not be controlled' is to make the state legislature reflect the 'majority'..but that takes $ and resolve. Sounds like you have the 'resolve', but blaming 'trans plants' and 'out of state money'...sounds like a place to look for the next election...$$, and more $$...
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Old December 6, 2019, 09:59 AM   #54
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I understand the importance of sending a message, but if the way the message is sent is illegal, does that really help our cause??
From what I have read, the sanctuary resolutions passed by many Virginia counties differ in their wording and not all promise to defy the prevailing state law. I agree that illegal defiance is difficult to justify for our side when we decry its use for liberal causes such as immigration.

The supervisors of Floyd County are drafting their own resolution to fit Floyd rather than using cookie-cutter text from other counties. Per our Board of Supervisors Chairman Lauren Yoder as quoted in the Floyd Press:

"Ultimately, Yoder was clear-eyed about the authority (or lack thereof) of county governments to regulate gun ownership. “One of the biggest things I don’t want to do is mislead people into thinking we have more power than we do. Counties really don’t have that much power,” he explained. “I really want our resolution to be more about advocating to the state and stating our position on the issue, rather than saying that we’re going to somehow absolve someone from a felony. We don’t have that power,” Yoder reiterated."

I'm sure the various counties understand their legal limitations, but lacking any real power to stop the coming regulations are using these resolutions as a protest and a show of unity in the rural counties. The collective outcry just may cause some Virginia delegates representing purple districts to give the matter some thought, and perhaps negotiate some softening of the proposed new regulations, such as grandfathering.
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Old December 6, 2019, 11:26 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by USNRet93 View Post
When's the next VA election for state legislature?

Only way to 'not be controlled' is to make the state legislature reflect the 'majority'..but that takes $ and resolve. Sounds like you have the 'resolve', but blaming 'trans plants' and 'out of state money'...sounds like a place to look for the next election...$$, and more $$...
We just had the election for the state offices. They won't happen again for two years. Virginia has off year elections for state offices so we're always in an election cycle alternating between national and state elections.
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Old December 7, 2019, 08:11 AM   #56
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We just had the election for the state offices. They won't happen again for two years. Virginia has off year elections for state offices so we're always in an election cycle alternating between national and state elections.
That's my point...this much post election outrage has to be channeled and transformed into support at the ballot box, IMHO..If the last VA state legislature races were CLOSE, it would be one thing but, in a lot of cases, they weren't.
I'm not in VA but rallies, proclamations, etc...It DOES send 'messages' but real change happens at the ballot box..
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Old December 7, 2019, 11:46 AM   #57
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There is a rally this Monday 9 Dec in Richmond and another on 20 Jan. Also, attend your county board of supervisors upcoming meetings as many are happening very soon (see links for details). If you have not called or emailed your state delegate and senator, especially those in competitive districts, do that now. We must prevent the laws from getting on the books as they are difficult to remove once added. Also, plan on many legal/court battles ahead.

https://support.vatp.org/stopthegungrab/
https://www.vcdl.org/
https://whosmy.virginiageneralassembly.gov/
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Old December 7, 2019, 11:55 AM   #58
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the demographics of Virginia have changed and are still changing, even in some rural counties. Even getting your base core of support out is going to be less and less effective as time goes on. its time to change tactics and broaden that base. thumping your chest and threatening civil war isnt going to get it done. And its not just virginia.
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Old December 8, 2019, 07:51 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by heyjoe View Post
the demographics of Virginia have changed and are still changing, even in some rural counties. Even getting your base core of support out is going to be less and less effective as time goes on. its time to change tactics and broaden that base. thumping your chest and threatening civil war isnt going to get it done. And its not just virginia.
Made my point better than me...+1
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Old December 8, 2019, 10:46 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by heyjoe
Even getting your base core of support out is going to be less and less effective as time goes on. its time to change tactics and broaden that base.
Broaden that base? How? By taking in people who only support a little gun control so we have more numbers?

But let’s say we can broaden our base to stalwart, no-compromise 2A voters - except they won’t vote for stalwart, no-compromise 2A politicians because they don’t like those politicians views on koala immigration or the burgeoning tortoise employment gap. And in the party that does share their views, there are ZERO no-compromise 2A politicians because they are primaried with put of state money and hamstrung by leadership until they lose.

“Broadening your base” means a generations-long effort of reaching out to every possible ally you can knowing that well over 90% of them are going to be a waste of time and oxygen. And its a great strategy; but people should understand it isn’t an overnight one. The first part of “broadening the base” is revitalizing the 2A in both parties so that people who do support the 2A have choices. Look at where we are now in the White House, not an ideal choice from a 2A perspective; but pretty much the only one that was left from a 2A perspective.

Quote:
thumping your chest and threatening civil war isnt going to get it done. And its not just virginia.
That’s never going to get anything done. Not the least because 98% of those people threatening civil war can’t even be bothered to do basic political legwork as a volunteer; but they are suddenly going to become an outlaw and live in the cold and damp while being hunted like animals? They’re just another variety of LARPer.
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Old December 8, 2019, 11:00 AM   #61
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Our immediate options are continue to send a message by showing up in large numbers at the county board of supervisors upcoming meetings (we have been doing great with this!), contact your state level senator and delegate (many have never heard from their constituents), attend as many rallies as possible, and be prepared to join the challenge to any unconstitutional law or regulation that is brought up and in the courts for any that gets passed.
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Old December 8, 2019, 01:31 PM   #62
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broadening the base is a long term strategy. As i'm sure you know, none of us have all the answers but its really imperative for the future of second amendment rights that we start working on that asap. i personally think that for starters pro second amendment organizations should concentrate on gun rights to the greatest extent possible, and avoid becoming embroiled and identified with social, cultural, and economic issues. There is no reason to broaden the base of our opponents.

Take myself for instance.....I live in New York, I am not a far right conservative, yet i own many guns, have no problem with others owning what they want, support right to carry, etc, yet i am not a conservative on social or cultural issues, How does it help the cause to call me a communist, or socialist, just because i do not agree with conservatives on every issue? Alienating potential allies because they dont share your whole world view is very counterproductive.
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Old December 8, 2019, 01:33 PM   #63
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It's amazing how many gun owners I've seen online who claim "nobody is coming for your guns" even as they pass laws banning your guns. And not just the "fudds" either, people who own ARs and such who have been gaslighted into submission.
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Old December 8, 2019, 03:10 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heyjoe
Alienating potential allies because they dont share your whole world view is very counterproductive.
Calling someone who is sympathetic to gun rights but consistently votes for anti-2A candidates a “potential ally” is like calling me a “potential billionaire.” The potential is there; but it is unrealized and unlikely to be realized.
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Old December 9, 2019, 08:04 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by heyjoe View Post
broadening the base is a long term strategy. As i'm sure you know, none of us have all the answers but its really imperative for the future of second amendment rights that we start working on that asap. i personally think that for starters pro second amendment organizations should concentrate on gun rights to the greatest extent possible, and avoid becoming embroiled and identified with social, cultural, and economic issues. There is no reason to broaden the base of our opponents.

Take myself for instance.....I live in New York, I am not a far right conservative, yet i own many guns, have no problem with others owning what they want, support right to carry, etc, yet i am not a conservative on social or cultural issues, How does it help the cause to call me a communist, or socialist, just because i do not agree with conservatives on every issue? Alienating potential allies because they dont share your whole world view is very counterproductive.
Well said again..as I've mentioned, there is a LARGE, middle of the road, un-affiliated group of voters 'out there'..mixing in other than 2A stuff does nothing but alienate/reduce that number. There are a lot of socially liberal, fiscally conservative, pro gun rights, 'independent'(in terms of not GOP or DEM) voters who 'might' vote one way if not called a 'libertard' or 'demoncrat'..
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Old December 9, 2019, 08:32 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heyjoe View Post
broadening the base is a long term strategy. As i'm sure you know, none of us have all the answers but its really imperative for the future of second amendment rights that we start working on that asap. i personally think that for starters pro second amendment organizations should concentrate on gun rights to the greatest extent possible, and avoid becoming embroiled and identified with social, cultural, and economic issues. There is no reason to broaden the base of our opponents.

Take myself for instance.....I live in New York, I am not a far right conservative, yet i own many guns, have no problem with others owning what they want, support right to carry, etc, yet i am not a conservative on social or cultural issues, How does it help the cause to call me a communist, or socialist, just because i do not agree with conservatives on every issue? Alienating potential allies because they dont share your whole world view is very counterproductive.
So how does someone like you vote? Do you vote for a Pro 2A candidate based on your pro 2a stance or do you vote for someone who demonizes the 2A and represents all leftists beliefs? Which is more important to you when it comes to voting? I have family in upstate NY that have guns but ironically think other people should not own guns. When I asked my aunt why she should be allowed to own guns and other people not... she replies, "I am not going to go out there and kill anyone". It gets worse, but I won't get into it. lol

And FYI, the 2A is a social and cultural issue. Over the years, it has become the SOLE cultural issue I care about.
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Old December 9, 2019, 01:31 PM   #67
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i dont think you should need a permit to own or carry a gun. if there is a permit system it should be shall issue.

Voting here is tough for second amendment issues. Republicans arent much better with gun issues here. We had a republican governor in the late 90's, Giuliani, was a republican mayor, and one house of the legislature was republican. they did nothing for gun rights except to make gun laws MORE restrictive. Giuliani flagrantly violated the fourth amendment, with stop and frisk for guns. The Safe Act could have been killed by the republican senate...they did nothing. So its not easy to find pro 2 nd amendment candidates, i do my best. I'm not alone here though as USNRet 93 stated there are plenty of us, who are pro second amendment, who are not being tapped into.

It will be broaden the base of pro second amendment voters or continue suffering losses nationwide at an accelerating rate. demographic trends demand it.
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Old December 9, 2019, 03:29 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by heyjoe View Post
i dont think you should need a permit to own or carry a gun. if there is a permit system it should be shall issue.

Voting here is tough for second amendment issues. Republicans arent much better with gun issues here. We had a republican governor in the late 90's, Giuliani, was a republican mayor, and one house of the legislature was republican. they did nothing for gun rights except to make gun laws MORE restrictive. Giuliani flagrantly violated the fourth amendment, with stop and frisk for guns. The Safe Act could have been killed by the republican senate...they did nothing. So its not easy to find pro 2 nd amendment candidates, i do my best. I'm not alone here though as USNRet 93 stated there are plenty of us, who are pro second amendment, who are not being tapped into.

It will be broaden the base of pro second amendment voters or continue suffering losses nationwide at an accelerating rate. demographic trends demand it.
I get it... and I agree that some R politicians are not really conservative... especially in NY. I'm not sure why anyone would call you a communist or socialist with your stated views on CCW. If you had the opposite view and were calling for higher taxes and didin't have a job, then I could see someone saying that... but who cares what people say. lol Some people will just stereotype people no matter what though... no one is safe. lol

As far as Giuliani and his leadership, he was doing the best he could with a city that was in collapse... civilization was in collapse there. And anyone who hasn't lived in that environment or similar one, should hold off on some of their opinions such as, "I don't care what was going on, it is illegal to stop, question and frisk someone for no reason at all". If anything, that state of civilization should be a warning to other cities and states that haven't experienced such failures of leadership that led to those living conditions.

If anyone wants to look at some of the crime stats to get a statistical understanding, I'll provide a link. I feel like I am living on another planet, compared to how things were in the 70s and 80s and when Giuliani took charge things were getting even worse. http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/nycrime.htm

The democrats in VA are more than willing to lead their state into a full fledged social/civil catastrophe with the same disastrous leadership... Dems almost everywhere seem to be hell bent on it. While the good guys in VA have some fire in them right now, I hope it is there come next elections.
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Old December 11, 2019, 08:51 AM   #69
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Well our Floyd County supervisors here in VA just unanimously passed a 2nd Amendment Sanctuary resolution! These Supervisor meetings normally draw just a handful of people. This one filled a 600 seat auditorium with many more standing! We are now up to 77 counties and municipalities in VA that have passed such a resolution. Hopefully the new democratic regime will take notice when they reconvene in January and begin negotiating the details of the proposed new regulations.

This is quite a movement and has been organized by the Virginia Citizens Defense League.
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Old December 11, 2019, 12:22 PM   #70
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Best of all, some of the blue counties that elected democrats have passed the 2A Sanctuary resolutions with hugh turnouts. I think it will make a few of the newly elected democrats see that if they vote for the proposed gun laws, they will never be re-elected. We only need a few to follow the constitution to defeat the laws.

Smyth County became a 2A Sanctuary county last night with well over 1,100 people showing up for the Board of Supervisor meeting that normally has attendance in single digits. The high school auditorium was overflowing with people standing around the wall or outside where there wasn't room. The vote was all yes.
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Old December 11, 2019, 06:34 PM   #71
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Yesterday announced...due to pressure from gun owners and counties...though I don't believe anything they say.

https://www.virginiamercury.com/2019...existing-guns/

“In this case, the governor’s assault weapons ban will include a grandfather clause for individuals who already own assault weapons, with the requirement they register their weapons before the end of a designated grace period,” Northam spokeswoman Alena Yarmosky said in a statement Monday evening. “Additional details on this and all other bills will be announced prior to the start of the upcoming session.”

BUT...

The new Democratic majorities are expected to pass a variety of gun restrictions, including universal background checks, red flag laws that would allow authorities to take guns from people deemed dangerous and reinstatement of a one-handgun-a-month law.

We are going to keep up the pressure. This whole "registration" thing is absurd.
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Old December 11, 2019, 07:03 PM   #72
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the pattern is always registration now, confiscation later...
Never publicly admitted to (note how fast the fellow who said "hell yes we're going to take your AR15s" in public disappeared from the nominees?)

not that it wasn't what they want, but because he was stupid enough to say it on the record.

When the proposals show up, attack them in detail. Until then, Happy Holidays!
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Old December 11, 2019, 07:22 PM   #73
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The logic is simple. Ban guns, and people won't be hurt by guns anymore
copied from #7--44 AMP.

Tell that to the familes/friends of the three military personnel murdered in Pensacola. Guns were banned from there and they were killed anyway just like most cases where there are 'gun free zones."

Wonder if we will ever know where the shooter obtained that Glock? The news wont tell us, wanna bet?
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Old December 11, 2019, 07:25 PM   #74
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from tom #70--

Well our Floyd County supervisors here in VA just unanimously passed a 2nd Amendment Sanctuary resolution! These Supervisor meetings normally draw just a handful of people. This one filled a 600 seat auditorium with many more standing! We are now up to 77 counties and municipalities in VA that have passed such a resolution. Hopefully the new democratic regime will take notice when they reconvene in January and begin negotiating the details of the proposed new regulations.

This is quite a movement and has been organized by the Virginia Citizens Defense League.

If all these folks had voted they wouldnt be attending meetings except many. many districts had NO pro 2A candidates and the (D)s won by default. YUK
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Old December 11, 2019, 07:34 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by langenc View Post
The logic is simple. Ban guns, and people won't be hurt by guns anymore
copied from #7--44 AMP.

Tell that to the familes/friends of the three military personnel murdered in Pensacola. Guns were banned from there and they were killed anyway just like most cases where there are 'gun free zones."

Wonder if we will ever know where the shooter obtained that Glock? The news wont tell us, wanna bet?
If he bought the glock legally, does it really matter where he bought it?
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