Why was this thread locked?

[bastiat]

Now we're paying for tatoo removal?!?!

Topic was closed because it was "Interesting, but not firearms related."

However, just the last 5 days of discussion in legal and political show the following topics come up that I can't seem to tie to firearms....

US intelligence sees expansion of ICBM club
Political dissent can bring federal agents to door
How could the Founding Fathers talk about freedom,,and yet owned slaves?
trade with china?
Secret Service Agent kicked off plane
Arabs blame 9-11 on the Jews, or "Yeah, the Arabs just want peace and to be friends"
Political correctness... (changing race of firemen raising the flag at WTC)
9/11 Flight Path Graphic
Pat Buchanan's "The Death of the West"
The PC Police
U.S. mulls encoding drivers’ licenses
Police hassle photographers inthe name of security?
Senator McCain in Turkey
Saw the Pres. Today
S Korea to purchase new US missiles
Knock and Drag - How the dems get out the vote -(MUST READ)
Small Plane Crashes Into Tampa Skyscraper

This must be an error if these topics stay while the one listed above gets locked. After all, I see the forum it was posted in described as "Round table discussions range from the Bill of Rights, to concealed carry, to general political issues.".

Doesn't how the federal government spends our money count as a general political issue?

[Goet]

seconded

[Dennis]

Well, okay, boys, if our discretion is inadequate, we can return to the strict interpretation of the forum policies.

We'll explain to the Membership that you had complaints. Okay?

[Edward429451]

Jeez, put the gun down. He just rambled on a little much thats all, we all do it. No big deal.

The moderators are pretty slack, I'd say. Flaming them is nonconducive to happy moderators...besides, it aint THAT hard to relate anything to firearms in some subtle way. A little light humor goes along way towards keeping them happy!

Thanks for the good work you guys/gals do to keep it rolling smoothly.

[bastiat]

Huh? I can't see how closing a new thread that is on-topic for the forum it was posted in is 'discretion'.

The forum description says 'general political issues'.

Maybe I'm missing something, but federal spending / waste seems to fit in as a general political issue.

It was closed as not being firearm related, but that doesn't look to be in the guidelines for the L&P forum. That's the requirement for the general discussion forum.

The items listed were to show that there were other political items being discussed that didn't pertain to guns. I'm not necessarily complaining about them, I'm using them as examples. Discretion is fine as long as it follows the same guidelines from topic to topic.

[bastiat]

BTW, I wasn't flaming any moderators. I was asking a question and using examples to back up my postion against the thread being locked.

[urban assault]

I'm sorry Dennis, but as a member in good standing who is very thankful for the moderators here.... that was a very un-proffesional reply from you. A member brought what he thought was, a valid procedural question about the validity of some threads over others, and you threaten him with the idea of going back to the original stated policies? for the whole forum? And then you tell him that you will let the membership know that he was the one who restricted our current discussions? At the very least he deserves an apology from you for your comments. That was out of line and uncalled for. Please remember that bastiat only asked a question in an appropriate manner. TFL Board moderators have a huge job to do, and we do appreciate the work you folks do for us, but that doesnt make it okay to treat another member in that way. I do believe that bastiat has a very valid point, in that some threads that have no gun content are allowed to run until they fade away and others are immediately stopped. This makes no sense to me and is disturbing. I dont mind free roaming discussions about a variety of topics, as long as I still get good firearm content as well. TFL is a great resource for us all and there is room enough for everyone and everything inside. In the future, everyone please think about what you say and how you say it before posting, because what you write is seen by all and remembered.

michael

[Edward429451]

Actually, I thought Dennis sounded kinda harsh to you in his reply, maybe you caught him having a bad day...

They've closed threads on me before, and it stands to reason that once locked, it wont be un-locked so maybe reposting it with a firearms spin to it will let it stay open??

I dont know. I wish work would pick up again. I'm bored at home with nothing to do but wait for the work which 'might' come in. No offense intended to anyone...

[Dennis]

I'll be with y'all in a moment. I'm putting out another fire just now.

[Dennis]

Bastiat asks, “Huh? I can't see how closing a new thread that is on-topic for the forum it was posted in is 'discretion'. The forum description says 'general political issues'.”

The subject is not on-topic. The mission of the entire bulletin board is expressed in the first line of the Forum Policies, “Welcome [to] The Firing Line, a virtual community dedicated to the discussion and advancement of responsible firearms ownership.” Later, Forum Policies state, “All Topics and Posts must be related to firearms, accessories or civil liberties issues.”

It would be insulting to Bastiat to assume he did not read the Forum Policies, or decided not to abide by those policies or could not determine that a bulletin board called THE FIRING LINE had to do with firearms.
-----

Bastiat notes, “I was asking a question and using examples to back up my postion against the thread being locked.”

The facts of the question were well researched and documented (really!), much better (unfortunately) than was the premise of the question. If the question is NOT a challenge wrapped in faux innocence (as explained above), I misjudged both Bastiat and Goet and they have insulted themselves more than I have or ever intended.
-----

Goet seconds.

Well, Goet, see above.
-----

Urban Assault,

- I tire of quoting the Forum Policies again and again.
- It should be obvious that we cannot put the entire Forum Policies in the little block for each forum.
- We all are a bit victimized by the inability to see body language or hear tone of voice. I will admit my entry is terse but I am not sure if adding a smiley would have clarified my tone or been considered confusing. No insult was meant and, since the post is in a public forum, privacy should not be expected.
- I am aware Bastiat is a Member in good standing and has been so for nearly a year.
-- If he were not in good standing, he would not be here.
-- I find it difficult to comprehend that any Member does not know The Firing Line is supposed to be related to firearms. The few exceptions we have made usually involve civil liberties, deaths in the family, etc. and we will continue to use our discretion both in keeping threads open and in closing them. We are not a tax board. Case closed.
-----

As for having a bad day, Edward, you nailed it. We are “enjoying” a rash of, “innocent questions,” “helpful comments and suggestions,” and (more honestly) complaints - on the board (in the forums), by Private Messaging, and by email.

I, for one, am not sitting home jobless. I’m working my butt off at the enterprise which feeds my family while, at the same time, trying to put out fires on TFL.

Yes, my patience is wearing thin – but it is our own fault (the Staff).

Whenever we give Members a bit of leeway in subject matter, other Members stretch the leeway a bit more and so on – until we have subjects on the level of “What is your favorite color?”

Then, when we (the Staff) again try to return to our stated mission, there is wailing and gnashing of teeth, and (while Members accuse each other of not qualifying for membership in the American Kennel Association because of their unknown and varied genetic history) we (the Staff) are accused of brutality.

Well, so be it.

Urban Assault, I’m being just about as patient as I can be under the circumstances. Rather than whine, I’ll leave it there.

All,

For additional advice, see my closing comments at this thread:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...5&pagenumber=2

[bastiat]

So I guess will be seeing a rash of thread closings in L&P in the near future, and I'll get credit for it?

Unless someone can explain to me how a small plane crashing into a tampa skyscraper is more civil liberties related than the federal government re-distributing our tax dollars for tattoo removal for gangbangers.

Or how the review of the racing movie 'the fast and the furious' contributes to the RKBA?

Like I said, I don't mind discretion, as long as it is applied using equal standards. It's the difference that we all acknowledge between 'may issue' and 'shall issue' ccw states.

[Dennis]

(sigh)

I have never, not once in three years (plus), gone to the Membership and named a person who has contacted me privately – unless they requested it or I received their permission to do so.

In addition, do not believe I ever mentioned a Member by name unless I was addressing him, answering a question about him or my comments complimented the Member.

Let's be realistic for a moment. If I went to a major forum, such as General or L&P, and said "Bastiat told me I had to....(whatever)," would that end the matter or make it worse? I believe it would make things worse.

Furthermore, I see no need to use a Member as my "authority." I have the Forum Policies and the guy who owns the joint for backup.

Ahhh, I have closed a few threads at the request of the originator (when he asked for it on the thread). Otherwise, I don't feel the need to create additional animosity. I can generate enough by myself.

I would add this, however. If you have a complaint about L&P and enter it in another public forum, it is dangerous to expect privacy or anonymity.

As for applying discretion “… using equal standards,” that simply is not possible.
1) The Staff, contrary to public opinion, is made up of humans, and
2) Even when the standards are applied uniformly, there will be disagreement, because the Membership also is human.

Now, “It's the difference that we all acknowledge between 'may issue' and 'shall issue' ccw states.” Not really. Here you may feel wronged, but you and your loved ones are not put at greater risk of force or deadly force. If you believe the principle is the same, I’ll disagree, but I bet we agree any violations of rights on an internet bulletin board are inconsequential compared to the Right to protect ourselves, our loved ones, other innocents, or (in some cases) property. A subject I believe the reason for TFL’s very existence.

[Edward429451]

Ya got no class dennis.

[bastiat]

Well, okay, boys, if our discretion is inadequate, we can return to the strict interpretation of the forum policies.

We'll explain to the Membership that you had complaints. Okay?

I can't tell for certain how you intended it, but I certainly read this as "We'll go to strict enforcement and give you credit".

So does your last message counteract the first, or whas the first entirely tongue-in-cheek without any indication that it was?

As for applying discretion “… using equal standards,” that simply is not possible.
1) The Staff, contrary to public opinion, is made up of humans, and
2) Even when the standards are applied uniformly, there will be disagreement, because the Membership also is human.

Well, it would be nice to see at least the forum standards followed. Film Review: The Fast & The Furious

Administrators and moderators participated in the above currently open thread. About the only thing gun related was tamara's post of the word 'Gun'.

[deanf]

You know, I used to get worked up about what I thought was unfair treatment of me by moderators on a message board. I mean, I lost sleep over it. Isn't that sick? I decided it was sick and decided that I would just not worry about it anymore. And I don't.

It's only a message board on the internet. Learn to let it go . . . . ask yourself: are the excruciating minutia of who did what to whom on an internet message board more important than other things going on in your life right now?

[urban assault]

I agree with you in spirit deanf, but rude behavior needs to have attention called to it so that it doesnt happen again. Dennis was rude to bastiat and handled his question poorly at best. One of the pillars of a free and open society is the ability to dissent without fear of retribution. I would hope that the moderators here would recognize that and take a step back and calm down. If they are overworked(and I believe they are) and under fire from other members on this board I am very sorry and I wish things were more civil...BUT, this is what they signed up for when they chose to raise their profiles out of the "herd" and moderate for the rest of us. They need to be patient, civil and courteous even as other are not to them. They need to be above the fray and if anger and acrimony begans to cloud their judgement... Then the matter needs to be handled by another moderator. This is just my opinion and overall, I am very satisfied with TFL. Thanks..

michael

[deanf]

One of the pillars of a free and open society is the ability to dissent without fear of retribution.

But TFL is not "a free and open society." It's a dictatorship. A benevolent dictatorship.

Here I go, getting caught up in it. Not gonna do it . . . . not gonna do it . . . . serenity now . . . . serenity now . . . .

[urban assault]

Yup, Im done with it now too. Buying stuff for my FAL is more fun. See ya....


michael

[Rich Lucibella]

Ease up, guys....please. Dean's right...it's just a message board. Staff doesn't move in lockstep fashion, though we try to communicate on all these issues. There is discretion allowed.

If, of late, you seem to be getting a few mixed messages, the fault is mine. I'm going 24/7 trying to get a print magazine to the top of the heap and have been barely available to the rest of the Staff. I'll attempt to rectify this lack of attention.

UA-
Rude? I think not. Hurried and Harried? Perhaps so. You have 150 posts to your name....Dennis has 7,000. If you can get to that level, ruffling as few feathers as he has over three years, you get the TFL Class Act Award for 2005!

Benevolent Dictaorship? Again, I think not (though I understand the sentiment was insulting). TFL's a social microcosm, made up of 12,000 individuals who have all agreed to the same Contract of Behavior and Posting Limits. In our effort to keep the board within those limits, Staff will sometimes be seen as too liberal and other times, too strict.

We do the best we can and we encourage your feedback. But, remember, it's still just a Message Board.
Rich

[C.R.Sam]

From the main menu.

"Legal and Political
Round table discussions range from the Bill of Rights, to concealed carry, to general political issues."

?

Didn't seem all that complicated.

Sam

[deanf]

Benevolent Dictaorship? Again, I think not (though I understand the sentiment was insulting).

I'm sorry. That was not my intent. I imagine you're already over it, probably having been previously insulted by better men than I.

Someone tried to put a political label on the structure of TFL, and I tried to correct them. In retrospect, I think we were both wrong. No political label is appropriate.

[Rich Lucibella]

Dean....
oops....that should have read :
"though I understand the sentiment was NOT insulting"

I understood where you were coming from and I took it in the manner intended. Sincere apologies for the dropped negative.
Rich