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July 11, 2013, 08:48 AM | #26 |
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My point is that the 1911 was way past meaningful maintenance and had to be carried C3 for safety's sake. If you have never had a 1911 so worn out that it wouldn't stay locked, you don't have a complete experience set. I don't know anyone who even remotely suggests cocked but not locked is safe carry.
Sure you still have a grip safety, but all the weapon familiarity you could possibly acquire won't make it safe. So pontificate all you want. If the old man said carry that way, that's the way you carried. And that's the name of that tune. If you think that was dumb, we were still trained to shoot the M16 dry, that is sans lube. You wouldn't believe the arguments about that one! |
July 11, 2013, 02:20 PM | #27 | |
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If it won't stay locked, FIX IT. Deaf
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July 11, 2013, 02:35 PM | #28 | |
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July 11, 2013, 03:18 PM | #29 |
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How do they carry their M9s in the military today? Round in chamber, hammer down ready for first shot dbl action?
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July 12, 2013, 09:20 AM | #30 |
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SGT L., depends on the unit, the mission and the place. We had one commander dictate carrying the M9 in Condition 3, even out and about.
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July 12, 2013, 11:09 AM | #31 |
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The military version Beretta, does the safety/de-cocker function as only a decocker (momentary) or can it stay in the down/safety/unable to fire position?
I know the 92s came with both variants. Sgt Lumpy |
July 12, 2013, 06:15 PM | #32 | |
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Hammer down is 100 percent safe with the M9. 1911's, of GI standard, don't have a firing pin lock and can be fired if dropped on the muzzle. Deaf
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July 12, 2013, 06:51 PM | #33 |
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I'm not asking if it matters.
Does the military Baretta come with a decocker only or a decocker/safety? Sgt Lumpy |
July 12, 2013, 10:15 PM | #34 |
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I believe the slide mounted decocker does stay down and has to be manually raised for firing.
Deaf
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July 12, 2013, 10:39 PM | #35 |
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OK. Every cop I know that carries a 92 hates the safety version of that lever. The decocker version decocks but then spring load returns to the ready to fire dbl action position. It's in a really odd spot and pivots from the rear compared to a 1911 which pivots from the front. Not very ergonomic.
I just didn't know if the military version had that same goofy thing or if they used the decocker only version. Sgt Lumpy |
July 13, 2013, 06:59 AM | #36 | |
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July 13, 2013, 09:55 AM | #37 |
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Thank you, Al T
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July 13, 2013, 01:49 PM | #38 |
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The trick with using the Beretta (actually S&W and Walther used the same method) safety is to flick it off when bringing your hand down to draw the weapon. Don't flick it off after drawing it was it's awkward.
But while the hand comes down on the grip, flick the safety off with your thumb. Then grasp the gun and draw it. Works quite well. Deaf
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July 13, 2013, 01:57 PM | #39 |
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Or simply carry it in dbl action ready to fire condition, decocker NOT locked down. I guess it's the 92G model that has the momentary decocker lever.
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July 13, 2013, 10:56 PM | #40 |
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Ayoob; US armed forces....
Gun writer & tactics instructor; Massad Ayoob wrote in a recent(2011/2012) article that US Army troops carry the M9 9mmNATO, safety on empty chamber with a 15rd M9 magazine.
He said the USAF Security Forces(what were SPs) do the same on most bases; empty chamber safety on loaded pistol magazine. They may have "cruiser" ready Mossberg or 870 pump 12ga shotguns or M4 5.56mm rifles(loaded magazines; 30-40rds) Note; in CONUS, the MPs(and I think the SFs or Navy SPs/shore patrol) no longer conduct LE operations(Law & Order). This new DA(Dept of the Army) memorandum came out in 2012. General security & LE details are done by 083 police officers(federal employees) or private contract security(PSCs). They are armed & trained but can not enforce the UCMJ(Uniform Code of Military Justice). Overseas(USFK, Japan, Italy, Europe, Africa, etc) MPs & SFs still have LE powers. |
July 14, 2013, 01:19 AM | #41 |
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Did Mas say why?
Empty chamber AND safety engaged? That sounds really weird. Sgt Lumpy |
July 14, 2013, 01:39 AM | #42 |
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Yeah Air Force cops carry like that, at least with an empty chamber.
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July 14, 2013, 07:52 AM | #43 |
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Most USAF Security Forces duty does not put them in a situation where they expect to be surprised -- they have time to react.
In combat or imminent threat situations, they will usually have another weapon that they are using.
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July 14, 2013, 09:40 AM | #44 |
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The only thing I'd carry with an empty chamber is the Colt Model P.
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July 14, 2013, 01:25 PM | #45 |
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Sgt,
I have no doubt bureaucrats, who have never been in combat, made the regulations on chamber empty and safety engaged. That was to protect them, not the GI. Long time ago a friend of mine who was a MP (along with his wife) in Louisiana. He came back to recruit at the high schools. He was scheduled to speak at one of them and he asked me for a 1911 magazine to put in his gun. Yes they issued him a gun and holster but NOT ANY MAGAZINES. SOP was, when off the base doing what he was doing, to have no magazines. Of course that looked pretty stupid in front of a bunch of Texas high schoolers who knew enough to see the gun was empty. So I let him borrow a Colt blued 1911 mag so his 1911A1 looked like it should. The bureaucrats just decided that was safer (not chamber empty, not all magazines empty, but NO MAGAZINE!) So I have no doubt in the AF they say chamber empty and safety on. The GI at the gate is merely a trip wire to the higher ups and once alerted the real security will come forth. Deaf
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July 14, 2013, 01:33 PM | #46 | |
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July 14, 2013, 04:05 PM | #47 |
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Mas says to carry chamber empty with safety on?
Deaf
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July 14, 2013, 06:52 PM | #48 |
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I probably misread, my sorry. I thought Mas was recommending carrying an M9 as empty chamber, safety on. I re-read clyde's post. I guess Mas wasn't recommending (hope he wasn't recommending!) that. I can't imagine that he would.
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July 14, 2013, 07:08 PM | #49 |
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Well I can assure you Mas would not say that. I've had his LFI-1 class and read virtually everything he as written. C1 is defiantly the way he thinks.
But the AF is the AF so I can see some carrier minded general who would not want an AD?ND to tarnish his reputation to order all guns carried to be inoperable. Even in Afghanistan lots of brass insist all guns be unloaded inside the green line. John Farnam has written alot about this problem and has convinced alot of Marine officers to allow them to carry their weapons fully loaded. But that is just the Marines and certain members of the brass. Deaf
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July 17, 2013, 05:07 PM | #50 |
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I carry a DAO, so there is no reason for a manual safety or to NOT carry with a round chambered. For defense, I'm a firm believer in DA/SA or DAO for that reason.
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