What I learned

TNT · July 5, 2006, 12:28 AM

Having a dad who has both a BAR and a Thompson I have invited many friends to shoot them both, and well the time has come for cleaning.

But having tore down both of them I find that the parts are heavier and machined not stamped the Thompson having gone through no less than 2500 rds never once failed to fire due to a malfunction the pieces inside are still in execellent shape some of the original machining marks can still be seen on them. The BAR which was cleaned yesterday was incredible it fired no less than 1500 rds and never failed due to mechanical malfunction. What did I learn from cleaning and shooting them? They don't make them like they used to any more.

silicon wolverine · July 5, 2006, 12:57 AM

No they dont. Now they are lighter, cheaper and easier to manufacture. Now dont get me wrong i like a tommy gun as much as the next guy but you cna make what 10 or 15 m-16s in the time it takes to make a thompson?

SW

TNT · July 5, 2006, 09:15 AM

NO you probably can't and as much as I like the M-16 I can assure you that you could not go through that many rounds consecutively and not have to clean it before it malfunctioned. The efficiency is just not there. The BAR was a little bit dirty as was the Thompson (it was worse) But they still functioned with was a credit to their design and the workmanship that went into them. I know the Marines did a test with the Thompson firing 2000+ rds as fast as they could load it (in full automatic) and it never malfunctioned. But knowing how many rounds went through them and then standing in awe as they kept going.

So much has gone to the way side that it is sad to know that they believe in quantity rather than quality.

MisterPX · July 5, 2006, 05:42 PM

Quote:

NO you probably can't and as much as I like the M-16 I can assure you that you could not go through that many rounds consecutively and not have to clean it before it malfunctioned.

What have you got to say about my AR with 15K rounds, no cleaning, throught it? I don't know why people keep rambling on about the cleanliness is essential BS about AR's, but myths are just that, false info.

shaggy · July 6, 2006, 08:29 AM

Don't make 'em like they used to? Sure they do, but certain qualities have been deemed more desirable than others, so the guns change to meet those new expectations. For example, while the Thompson is a wonderful weapon, it is very heavy and doesn't possess the range or accuracy of an M16. The Garand is also a great weapon, but its also heavier than an M16 and has its drawbacks in low ammo capacity and a slow reloading time. The M16 was an attempt to address the drawbacks of both guns, and while not necessarily perfect in any single aspect, its a good compromise of low weight, high ammo capacity, and ability to accurately engage the enemy at longer ranges (than a subgun). I don't think its better or worse, just different; an apples to oranges comparison. The same (and better) manufacturing quality is still there, but just applied differently. For another example, just consider the role the BAR filled; an automatic weapon with the punch of the 1919 LMG (though far less capacity), but more portable and faster to bring to bear against an enemy than the 1919. The M240 fills the same LMG/GPMG role as the 1919, but does so with less weight so its more portable, obviating the need for something to fil the niche of the 1918 BAR (especially when used in conjunction with the M249). And FWIW, the M240 was designed based upon the 1918 BAR - basically a 1918 BAR action turned upside down with a beltfeed system instead of a mag.

TNT · July 6, 2006, 10:34 PM

MisterPX no offense, but I would have to say your a little on the BS side with the 15K number 1500 now that may be believeable(<-spelling?) 15K I would say you know what the military's policy is on drugs? I respect the fact that you are in theater but come on 15K

Shaggy don't get me wrong I am a big AR fan I own one I have been using them in service for 16yrs great gun but firing a AR or M-16 in full auto for 2000+ rds consecutively as fast as you can reload it I highly doubt a AR or M-16 would hold up to that sort of abuse I have not heard of one yet that has yet or any other automatic in that class Even the M-60's they recommend you changing barrels to prevent over heating of the barrel. The BAR is in a class alto itself IMO It was the grand daddy to the M-60 and the M-60 was great too, both fired from a open bolt which in my opinion is better for circulation and cooling. The M-16 was a compromise yes faster cyclic rate and larger ammo capacity. All I am saying is that they don't make em like they used to. The times changed and the weapons changed. Granted maybe the M-16 did not need all the machined parts that the Thompson or the BAR had.

TNT · July 7, 2006, 01:44 PM

sorry double post

MisterPX · July 7, 2006, 03:36 PM

That's only at about 8K. I've got about half a dozen people who can attest to my 15K. Broaden your world, Vietnam era issues have been long gone.

BTW, GSE has a vid of them doing 1K FA through an M4 tossing it in sandy water every now and then, and it ran flawlessly except for a mag issue.

TNT · July 7, 2006, 05:03 PM

I stand corrected you would be the first that I have heard of such numbers going through without cleaning.

I stand corrected on something else as well, the Thompson did not fire 2000rds in that rapid fire exercise it was 2500rds. And I say again I highly doubt that the M-16 would take 2500rds in full automatic mode as fast as you can load it with that being the only time break in reloading and fire all 2500 as fast as you can without a malfunction. (Hell I am not sure the BAR could take that abuse). I have heard stories in Nam of where the M-60's were fired sometimes to where the barrels were glowing red And stories of BARs firing constantly like that in Korea doing amazing things.

Granted even 8000 rds if you say is true impressive in the fact that it went that long without cleaning, but it was not all at once And the key phrase is "all at once". you prove to me that the M-16 can do 2500 rds in full automatic with no time break just in the time it to to reload and not malfunction and I will eat my words. But remember the keys are continually and not breaks for cooling only to reload and fire ASAP. Prove me wrong I would love to be proved wrong so I can brag about the AR variants as well. But I have not heard or read any reliable information to lead me to believe otherwise.

Disclaimer: I am not putting down the M-16 or th AR's like I said I have worked with them for 16yrs that I have been in service and have a AR myself. I love the gun but I would not be confident enough to fire 2500rds through it in full automatic (if it had that capability) and say it will not malfunction within any of the 2500rds. So before this thread turns into a flamer for those who have one and love them like I do let me say this. I am not putting it down just mearly stating a point of observation

Thank you for your time and service. Probably pass by you in theater within the next 4 to six months if your still there God Bless and May God speed be with you for a safe journey back home. And may God broaden your world as he has mine and MisterPX.........Have a nice day

MisterPX · July 8, 2006, 01:54 PM

16's will only run about 400 rnds mag dumping until the barrel breaches. Then again, it's also running higher pressures.

July 5, 2006, 12:28 AM	#1
TNT Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: Back in glorious Nebraska Posts: 606	What I learned Having a dad who has both a BAR and a Thompson I have invited many friends to shoot them both, and well the time has come for cleaning. But having tore down both of them I find that the parts are heavier and machined not stamped the Thompson having gone through no less than 2500 rds never once failed to fire due to a malfunction the pieces inside are still in execellent shape some of the original machining marks can still be seen on them. The BAR which was cleaned yesterday was incredible it fired no less than 1500 rds and never failed due to mechanical malfunction. What did I learn from cleaning and shooting them? They don't make them like they used to any more. __________________ "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man and brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."

July 5, 2006, 09:15 AM	#3
TNT Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: Back in glorious Nebraska Posts: 606	NO you probably can't and as much as I like the M-16 I can assure you that you could not go through that many rounds consecutively and not have to clean it before it malfunctioned. The efficiency is just not there. The BAR was a little bit dirty as was the Thompson (it was worse) But they still functioned with was a credit to their design and the workmanship that went into them. I know the Marines did a test with the Thompson firing 2000+ rds as fast as they could load it (in full automatic) and it never malfunctioned. But knowing how many rounds went through them and then standing in awe as they kept going. So much has gone to the way side that it is sad to know that they believe in quantity rather than quality. __________________ "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man and brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."

July 6, 2006, 10:34 PM	#6
TNT Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: Back in glorious Nebraska Posts: 606	MisterPX no offense, but I would have to say your a little on the BS side with the 15K number 1500 now that may be believeable(<-spelling?) 15K I would say you know what the military's policy is on drugs? I respect the fact that you are in theater but come on 15K Shaggy don't get me wrong I am a big AR fan I own one I have been using them in service for 16yrs great gun but firing a AR or M-16 in full auto for 2000+ rds consecutively as fast as you can reload it I highly doubt a AR or M-16 would hold up to that sort of abuse I have not heard of one yet that has yet or any other automatic in that class Even the M-60's they recommend you changing barrels to prevent over heating of the barrel. The BAR is in a class alto itself IMO It was the grand daddy to the M-60 and the M-60 was great too, both fired from a open bolt which in my opinion is better for circulation and cooling. The M-16 was a compromise yes faster cyclic rate and larger ammo capacity. All I am saying is that they don't make em like they used to. The times changed and the weapons changed. Granted maybe the M-16 did not need all the machined parts that the Thompson or the BAR had. __________________ "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man and brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."

July 7, 2006, 01:44 PM	#7
TNT Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: Back in glorious Nebraska Posts: 606	sorry double post __________________ "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man and brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Last edited by TNT; July 7, 2006 at 03:55 PM.

July 7, 2006, 05:03 PM	#9
TNT Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: Back in glorious Nebraska Posts: 606	I stand corrected you would be the first that I have heard of such numbers going through without cleaning. I stand corrected on something else as well, the Thompson did not fire 2000rds in that rapid fire exercise it was 2500rds. And I say again I highly doubt that the M-16 would take 2500rds in full automatic mode as fast as you can load it with that being the only time break in reloading and fire all 2500 as fast as you can without a malfunction. (Hell I am not sure the BAR could take that abuse). I have heard stories in Nam of where the M-60's were fired sometimes to where the barrels were glowing red And stories of BARs firing constantly like that in Korea doing amazing things. Granted even 8000 rds if you say is true impressive in the fact that it went that long without cleaning, but it was not all at once And the key phrase is "all at once". you prove to me that the M-16 can do 2500 rds in full automatic with no time break just in the time it to to reload and not malfunction and I will eat my words. But remember the keys are continually and not breaks for cooling only to reload and fire ASAP. Prove me wrong I would love to be proved wrong so I can brag about the AR variants as well. But I have not heard or read any reliable information to lead me to believe otherwise. Disclaimer: I am not putting down the M-16 or th AR's like I said I have worked with them for 16yrs that I have been in service and have a AR myself. I love the gun but I would not be confident enough to fire 2500rds through it in full automatic (if it had that capability) and say it will not malfunction within any of the 2500rds. So before this thread turns into a flamer for those who have one and love them like I do let me say this. I am not putting it down just mearly stating a point of observation Thank you for your time and service. Probably pass by you in theater within the next 4 to six months if your still there God Bless and May God speed be with you for a safe journey back home. And may God broaden your world as he has mine and MisterPX.........Have a nice day __________________ "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man and brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."

July 5, 2006, 12:57 AM	#2
silicon wolverine Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2006 Location: South dakota Posts: 674	No they dont. Now they are lighter, cheaper and easier to manufacture. Now dont get me wrong i like a tommy gun as much as the next guy but you cna make what 10 or 15 m-16s in the time it takes to make a thompson? SW

July 6, 2006, 08:29 AM	#5
shaggy Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2004 Posts: 1,519	Don't make 'em like they used to? Sure they do, but certain qualities have been deemed more desirable than others, so the guns change to meet those new expectations. For example, while the Thompson is a wonderful weapon, it is very heavy and doesn't possess the range or accuracy of an M16. The Garand is also a great weapon, but its also heavier than an M16 and has its drawbacks in low ammo capacity and a slow reloading time. The M16 was an attempt to address the drawbacks of both guns, and while not necessarily perfect in any single aspect, its a good compromise of low weight, high ammo capacity, and ability to accurately engage the enemy at longer ranges (than a subgun). I don't think its better or worse, just different; an apples to oranges comparison. The same (and better) manufacturing quality is still there, but just applied differently. For another example, just consider the role the BAR filled; an automatic weapon with the punch of the 1919 LMG (though far less capacity), but more portable and faster to bring to bear against an enemy than the 1919. The M240 fills the same LMG/GPMG role as the 1919, but does so with less weight so its more portable, obviating the need for something to fil the niche of the 1918 BAR (especially when used in conjunction with the M249). And FWIW, the M240 was designed based upon the 1918 BAR - basically a 1918 BAR action turned upside down with a beltfeed system instead of a mag.

July 7, 2006, 03:36 PM	#8
MisterPX Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2006 Location: Amerika's Doyleland Posts: 809	That's only at about 8K. I've got about half a dozen people who can attest to my 15K. Broaden your world, Vietnam era issues have been long gone. BTW, GSE has a vid of them doing 1K FA through an M4 tossing it in sandy water every now and then, and it ran flawlessly except for a mag issue.

July 8, 2006, 01:54 PM	#10
MisterPX Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2006 Location: Amerika's Doyleland Posts: 809	16's will only run about 400 rnds mag dumping until the barrel breaches. Then again, it's also running higher pressures.

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