Why Not a Blue Gun?

[HiBC]

And then there was the child thrownout of school and busted for eating his pop-tart into the shape of a gun.Its not a blue gun,its a pop-tart gun,and its always loaded.
There are real dangers,and imagined ones.This woman was unfortunately killed by a real danger.

The only danger from a blue training firearm is imaginary or emotional.

If you choose to rule your own life with imaginary,emotional fears,be my guest.Please do not attempt to impose that rule on others.

Talking about muzzle discipline(or the 4 rules) is one step.Using a blue gun in lieu of a real firearm gives an opportunity to practice the 4 rules without risk as competence is developed.

Word I get from the small LEO contact I have,the dedicated responsible cops try to have range time about once a month.Many skip it.And many were never shooters,they just got a government job.

That's not good enough for a FOF scenario about an active shooter in a school or hostage situation.Clumsy there results in death by friendly fire.A team entry to clear a room?

New doctrine is,responding officers on scene go in.Waiting on SWAT is yesterday.Higher competence is required of everyone.That requires training,with weapons or props.

Lets not forget our military trains with firearms,and firearms get pointed.


No,I'm not dismissing the 4 rules.

There always needs to be multiple layers of safety.For example,if you concealed carry,we rely on the holster as one more layer of safety.I suggest that carrying concealed,the muzzle will sweep some part of the carriers body several times a day,and yes,its loaded.
Life will never be without risk.Not training carries it's own risk.But don't be in a situation where one,or even two acts of human fallibility results in tragedy.

Count on Murphy's law.

[TXAZ]

What HiBC said:

No,I'm not dismissing the 4 rules.

Nor am I.

But they didn't have a blue 'training weapon' ithey had a real, loaded, safety-off-ready-to-fire-which-it-(reportedly)-did gun. And that's a training device.
That's a big difference in a training exercise.
I'm not aware of a (actual) blue, hard-rubber / plastic training gun every killing someone because it fired a real round.

It's a tragedy, gross negligence, and should be criminally actionable, at least as involuntary manslaughter. Whose at fault, that's for a jury to decide.

[Targa]

As with a lot of things these days, what ever happened to common sense?

Yep^^^. Just incredible to me how people can be this....nevermind. Just what a waste, thats all I got.

[JimPage]

This was stupidity at its highest point. NEVER do that kind of training with real guns. NEVER!

[Targa]

Getting past the real gun issue for a moment and I agree it is an issue especially when civilian's are involved I am certainly not trying to make light of that, how freaking hard is it to open the chamber and clear a firearm, bullets don't just magically appear after that. I am just sitting here stewing over the complete and total stupidity of this guy, just mind boggling to me when this stuff happens.

[armedleo]

I don't think he thought his gun was unloaded. I think he forgot it was.

[HiBC]

I do not know what happened.

One way to create a bad situation is to start with an unloaded chamber,and a loaded magazine.

Then,by force of habit,without really checking,go through the motions of clearing the firearm,for the benefit of all the noobs watching you,to be politically correct.
Especially if your mouth is flapping while you do it.The brain is involved with being important.

Now,with the firm belief the pistol has just been cleared,a round was just chambered.
And it is "unloaded"

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by armedleo

I don't think he thought his gun was unloaded. I think he forgot it was.

Which is why Rule 1, as stated by Jeff Cooper and used at schools like Gunsite, is, "All guns are always loaded." There's no qualification or admission of a possibility that the gun is not loaded. Therefore, there's no way to forget that a gun is loaded.

Therefore, for certain types of training we use --

1. a "blue" gun. A blue, training gun isn't a gun. It's a solid lump of plastic (with some metal embedded in it for weight). It has no moving parts and can't actually do anything.
   
   
2. A gun modified with a properly designed training barrel. Such a barrel is distinctly colored plastic with no bore and no chamber.
   
   
3. airsoft. An airsoft gun fires a 6mm, plastic ball propelled by propane gas. It can not chamber or fire actual ammunition.
   
   
4. Simunitions. A Simunition gun is distinctively colored and has been modified to fire only Simunitions. A gun thus modified can not fire actual ammunition.
   
   
5. Simunitions are supposed to be used under a strict safety protocol. No real guns or live ammunition are permitted anywhere near where the training is being conducted. Participants empty their pockets and are permitted no metal on their persons. They are wanded to make sure that they have no metal on their persons. Appropriate safety gear is worn.

[Old Bill Dibble]

Our simmuntion modifications are the same color as the officer's weapons (pistol, rifle, shotgun). They are a bit lighter and of course the ammo is lighter but otherwise the same.

But yep the rule forever has been not to have live ammo anywhere near the training environment. This whole thing is tragic.

[Snyper]

I don't think he thought his gun was unloaded. I think he forgot it was.

It was a revolver that was supposed to be loaded with blanks.

No one seems to know where the live ammo came from, or how it was loaded without someone noticing the difference.

[armedleo]

So it turns out the officer/shooter was previously terminated from his last police job at Miramar P D; fired while on probation for two excessive force complaints that came in back to back. Although "cleared" of the allegations, the I A investigation found policy and procedure violations and fired him.

We call that a red flag.

Okay. Here's the problem in Florida - and it may not be unique to Florida - but I do this for a living. The better paying departments are in Dade and Broward Counties - Miramar is in Broward and is a very professional agency and all the latest technology and equipment for its officers. They pay quite well. Once an officer is fired from a major department in Dade and/or Broward it is highly unlikely any other agency will hire him. So, these fired officers migrate north to the poor parts of the state. The agencies are undermanned and don't pay very well. That's how these guys can (and do) eventually get hired again and again, termination after termination. They hardly ever lose their state credentials (virtually impossible to lift) so as long at they remain in good standing with FDLE (the police regulatory agency) they're good to go. Horrible system.

[Ralgha]

I've had federal training, all their training and fake guns were painted according to what they are. I forget what the exact colors meant, something like green=simulator, red=disabled (firing pin pulled and barrel blocked) or fake, blue=simunition. The only time you ever saw a real (unpainted) gun was on a range. Anywhere else, if it was not painted, something was wrong.

[TailGator]

I saw an article quoting the police chief as saying that he was unaware that ammunition in that caliber was available. I have no idea what that means, whether it was some type of gun so obscure that ammo is hard to find, or just that it was, for example, a .38 special, and he thought his department only stocked 9 mm.

[armedleo]

Whatever that means is right! I think the chief is better served by simply saying, "No comment," and wait till the investigation is complete.

If he's a chief and is unaware of that caliber being available (anywhere?) or unaware of its manufacture or being ignorant of what ammo is around his police department he doesn't need to be chief. After all, the buck stops with him.

[johnwilliamson062]

If they were using blanks indoors...

Blanks aren't safe at the ranges found indoors.

There are very good simulators. Much better than solid blue guns of 20 years ago. There is no excuse for not using one, especially in a department that should have considerable training resources available to officers.

[TailGator]

The other aspect of the argument that they didn't have proper equipment is to ask, if you didn't have the equipment to do it safely, why did you still do it?

[Lohman446]

I'm frankly aghast that any "professional" would point an operational firearm at someone outside of the need to use said firearm. I'm more surprised a "professional trainer" would allow or encourage such a scenario.

I used the word negligent earlier. I'm of the opinion this has passed the point of civil negligence and falls under criminal standards.

[armedleo]

Lohman's right. If a regular civilian did this they'd be jailed.

[Deaf Smith]

Why Not a Blue Gun?

Cause they are to cheap, lazy, inept, careless, think they are God... take your pick.

I have a 'red' gun and if I did simulations I'd use a simulation gun that cannot use real ammo.

But then I ain't a trainer, cop or otherwise, who thinks they can't make mistakes.

Deaf

[Glenn Dee]

First, I dont understand what could the officer could have possibly been doing with a gun training citizen patrols. I just dont get that part, or why he may have pointed the gun at the woman... and yes, he did violate the most basic gun safety.

I was trained in the use of the police service revolver and pistol in the police academy... two madatory trips a year including role playing, classroom work, practice range, qualifying range, and inspection of firearms... (not in that order)... During the role playing we used real guns. Mostly revolvers, but glocks as well.

One or two role playing scenario's would always be a perp trying to kill the officer. What we had was red barrel guns and yellow barrel guns. Yellow barrel would not chamber any ammo. Red barrel would only chamber a cut down casing loaded with a primer only. In order to participate in role playing an officer would have to turn in what ever guns he had at the range (Usually two). I always chose to be a bad guy, and usually chose a full sized revolver, a small revolver, and a small auto... I always won... because I cheated like a bad guy would...

Back to the OP's question .... NO ONE IMO should train with ANY firearm capable of chambering or firering live ammo.

[briandg]

It literally floors me that this happened. It's bee pointed out that literally dozens of individual failures took place before that happened, and the largest of them all was that from the very top of the chart, that chief of police was unaware that his men were pointing real guns at people and pulling the trigger. There are so many mistakes all the way down the chart, and as was said, dozens of missed safety opportunities.

Brandon Lee was killed by a barrel plug. That begs the question, what sort of freaking idiot goes on a movie set and aims a real gun dead center at a man's chest and pulls the trigger? Following gun safety rules, why wasn't it pointed to the side, since NOBODY would know?

Almost fifty years ago, on the set of a television cop show, some brain donor started fooling around with his blank loaded, but real pistol, put it at his temple and fired, good Lord, in all of his times with blanks on set, did he not know what would happen?

The simple fact is that there should be a range managter wherever guns are being handled by many whose complete responsibility is to keep track of every gun and round of ammo. Not a trainer, a man dedicated to safety, with no other duties.

Something needs to be said. The idea that we shouldn't point at something we don't want to kill should be worded "don't want to destroy." I know a guy who shot his television. I knew a guy who kept sharp for deer season by dry firing at his neighbor's dogs.

I've always nagged at people to think of their firearm like a laser, or space weapon, and that the shot would penetrate everything out to eternity. An AD might not hit anyone inside the immediate vicinity, but how safe is that school bus that just passed buy as your rifle discharged?

[shafter]

But my question is: why was an actual service pistol used in this training session at all? Why not a blue dummy gun or similar training pistol? Even an airsoft pistol? Is using an actual live service pistol in these types of training scenarios widespread? What makes that superior to using a dummy gun, even a $15 airsoft pistol from Wal-Mart?

All of my LE training involving pointing a weapon at a real person has been done with dedicated simunition firearms or plastic dummy guns. Officers are told not to bring any ammo or knives into the training area and are pat-searched to verify.

Good realistic training will involve pointing a firearm at a real person during scenarios. Such training will also involve safety measures to ensure a real bullet doesn't have the opportunity to accidentally kill someone.

[Lohman446]

I'm still trying to figure out how this happens.

Trainer or not if you were involved in a scenario that involved pointing functional firearms at people would you participate or walk away?

Personally I would leave quickly.

[briandg]

Since one of the prime directives of shooting is never point at something that you aren't willing to destroy, I'd be shouting "are y'all crazy!?" and probably trying my best to get out of that situation.

As a civilian, doing training, my god, I'd have told the fellas just how stupid that idea was, walked out, and asked for an audience with the chief.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Aren't we repeating ourselves?

Does it boil down to that we are unable to use real firearms with the appropriate ammo (not blanks)?

Having been in about 7 or 8 exercises with real revolvers and sim type rounds - I survived. However, as I said before we were ultra-careful. It sounds like this outfit wasn't. The officer didn't sound like he was top-notch as compared to the national level folks I interacted with.

Now, we've switched to airsoft for the most part. Probably a good move.

Now some folks weren't even ok with blue guns, airsoft or sims. That IMHO is too extreme as then no training that is useful can occur.