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Old October 19, 2016, 02:00 PM   #51
agtman
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Clearing rooms etc. are not advised for the average homeowner.
What? Advised by who? Some politically-correct police chief on the local news ...

Tactical firearms schools like GunSite, Thunder Ranch in Oregon, and TDI in Ohio and others, have been teaching civilian students how to safely clear rooms in defense of their homes (using teaching structures called "Live Fire Houses") with pistols, shotguns, and ARs for decades.
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Old October 19, 2016, 02:02 PM   #52
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NRA, Pinkett, attorneys, SWAT I shot with in Cali back when dinosaurs roamed the earth.

EDIT: note none of my posts are intended as attacks (unless you're a cat lover in which case my wiener dog tells me you have no soul). Maybe I am confused as to the intent of the posts and the thread.

Last edited by zincwarrior; October 19, 2016 at 02:13 PM.
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Old October 19, 2016, 03:20 PM   #53
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Clearing rooms etc. are not advised for the average homeowner.
Understanding the methodology behind how you do it and how to mitigate the dangers as you do it, can be applied to many situations and conditions. The "spirit" of any particular tactic can have practical applications in other similar circumstances. It is that knowledge and understanding as well as its application that is typically absent from gun games.

Knowing how to clear a room properly and in a manner which is conducive to your own personal safety can also highlight the proper way to move from place to place or position to position in a hostile environment for any reason. Running carelessly around blind barricades and standing in the exact middle of a port is not how trained people are likely to fight. If you never clear a room, that knowledge can still help you survive a armed criminal attack by helping you make better decisions.
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Old October 19, 2016, 03:23 PM   #54
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Kind of like the 50% covering rule on shooting through a port in IDPA...
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Old October 19, 2016, 03:31 PM   #55
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the fact that rules even exist about cover or to force cover is the perfect point. They mimic tactics only to the degree that the rules mandate. Its like saying if you tag home base, your're safe.
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Old October 19, 2016, 03:38 PM   #56
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Yep. I didn't bring that up in my list of benefits as people get annoyed saying "ah thats not really cover" or whatever.

On the flip side, unless you have the option of a training class every week its an excellent way to keep your skill sets in practice.

Maybe thats what I'm really trying to say. Neither should replace the other. Both can complement the other.

PLus I'm looking forward to shooting from a ladder again.

Last edited by zincwarrior; October 19, 2016 at 03:44 PM.
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Old October 19, 2016, 03:57 PM   #57
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Clearing rooms etc. are not advised for the average homeowner WITHOUT proper training.
Fixed it for you.

And few cops, including the ones I've dealt with, realize that there's actually a huge amount of tactical firearms training available to civilians that equals or, in some schools, exceeds in quality what their department provides, unless they get it on their own time, and usually their own dime.

Even now, there are still cops (outside of those assigned to specialized units that train regularly) who confuse the annual or semi-annual ritual called "qualification" with training.

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Legally the available scenarios I can lawfully use lethal force are severely restricted, and with good reason. That reduces down to a few scenarios-most of which come down to doing other protective actions than self defense (leaving the area etc.).
You're the first person from Texas I've ever seen claim that Texas restricts your right to clear rooms inside your home. Does Texas also impose a Duty-to-Retreat on the home owner inside his or her own residence?

I'd thought Texas, more so than most states, had an expansive view of the right to use lethal force in SD, especially on your own property and/or inside your home.
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Old October 19, 2016, 04:09 PM   #58
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Didn't say legally.

This was more-why are you clearing your house-wait in a secure position for the police to come advice given.

Never mind. I have now been...completely enlightened about the amount of training required.
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Old October 19, 2016, 04:28 PM   #59
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regardless of what a person wants to do, is able to do or expects to do.. the situation you find yourself in may demand that you do something else. If remaining static is a realistic option then its reasonable to assume that moving might also be a realistic option. I do not see the logic in narrowly focusing on only one method. If we were talking about 26 options, ok, I get it... but we are only talking about 2. I cant help but think that some people simply construct an argument based on what they want to do and not want is practical or prudent.

I have no intent to roam around my home looking for an intruder. I do accept the fact that I may not be able to remain static for a whole host of reasons. Maybe they set something on fire, maybe my wife ran out of the room and is in danger, maybe my wife got up in the middle of the night and came upon an intruder and cant make it back to me. There are countless reasons I might have to move during a violent encounter. I would prefer to know how to do that while optimizing my chances of success.
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Old October 20, 2016, 01:30 PM   #60
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regardless of what a person wants to do, is able to do or expects to do.. the situation you find yourself in may demand that you do something else. If remaining static is a realistic option then its reasonable to assume that moving might also be a realistic option. I do not see the logic in narrowly focusing on only one method. If we were talking about 26 options, ok, I get it... but we are only talking about 2. I cant help but think that some people simply construct an argument based on what they want to do and not want is practical or prudent.

I have no intent to roam around my home looking for an intruder. I do accept the fact that I may not be able to remain static for a whole host of reasons. Maybe they set something on fire, maybe my wife ran out of the room and is in danger, maybe my wife got up in the middle of the night and came upon an intruder and cant make it back to me. There are countless reasons I might have to move during a violent encounter. I would prefer to know how to do that while optimizing my chances of success.
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Back to gaming vs. training:
Which drills do you find not helpful? Lets compare to IDPA as USPSA has long since moved away from defensive aspects to fully embrace its gaming nature.

Alternatively what would you change to make them better in this aspect (remembering that safety is a factor and so is fun)?
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Old October 20, 2016, 03:46 PM   #61
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The only element of gun games that I concede as being productive is individual gun handling skill and marksmanship. I concede those things only in a vacuum because once you construct the IDPA universe around them, I consider it counter productive toward anything related to real self defense. IDPA is practice for more IDPA, I do not consider it productive toward anything else. To do so is simply making muddy water.. That's just me

What would I change about IDPA? I would change nothing.. IDPA if just fine for what it is and need not be anything else. What I think should change is the efforts to draw some sort of equivalence between gun games and armed self defense training.
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Old October 20, 2016, 04:05 PM   #62
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Are you an instructor perchance?

I'd proffer individual gun handling skill and marksmanship is 90% of the perspiration involved.

If one can't
*draw and put six rounds in a target in 1.5 seconds, (admittedly thats a goal of mine, not there yet)
*reload in under 2 seconds,
*be fluid and muscle memory level in bang racking the slid with a misfire/FTF,
*be adept at firing/loading while moving along any degree of the axis,
*hit targets from 6 inches to 25 or 50 yards.

Then one can't think of the less elementary stuff now can they? I can't stay cool and tactically aware if I'm fumbling with my pistol. I can't instinctively get within a door frame or other harder portion of a room if my brain is dicking around trying to think about aiming. The brain can only do so many conscious things at any given time.

I've seen far too many people who've taken self defense classes only who can't do the basics to a minimum level.

What do you consider counter productive about IDPA? Here's some of mine
*duckwalking
*linear shooting (not moving laterally before and while to get you off the axis) of your opponent.
*non-blind scenarios where you don't know where the targets are (night scenarios are pretty good about that though).
EDIT: let me add slide release with the slide lock. We were taught rack release which is slightly slower but better for any auto as the primary method. SLows you down but good for all types.
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