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Old September 22, 2009, 12:01 PM   #26
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TailGator
...when you are ready to take your pistol off your belt when you get home, why not practice your draw and put the sights in the middle of the chest of that ugly sucker in the mirror?...
I would not recommend this. You're performing this exercise with a gun you know to be loaded. One of these day one is likely to pull the trigger and get a nasty surprise (and seven years bad luck).

Instead, I recommend formal dry practice a few times a week 5 to 10 minutes at a time. Clear your gun. Triple check that it's unloaded. Remove all ammunition from the area. Practice presentation and sight/target acquisition, through the trigger press. Use something to aim at against a solid backstop (for extra safety). You can perhaps add in some movement -- turning and drawing, drawing while moving forwards or backwards, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by troy_mclure
...all likelihood the "target" will be verry close,...
And if it's not all that close, what's your "plan B"? Are you prepared for "plan B"?
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Old September 22, 2009, 03:42 PM   #27
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Quote:
And if it's not all that close, what's your "plan B"? Are you prepared for "plan B"?
if hes that far away, run away/to cover of course!
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Old September 22, 2009, 03:52 PM   #28
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I would opine that your muscle memory of aligning your sights during practice and quals would make "point" and "aimed" fire a distinction without a difference in CQB---right now shooting. If you have time to aim you have time to tactically retreat. of course YMMV
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Old September 22, 2009, 04:36 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by troy_mclure
..if hes that far away, run away/to cover of course...
If you can.

[1] He doesn't necessarily have to be that far away, especially if he has a gun.

[2] Maybe you have an incapacitated companion. Do you plan to abandon him/her?

[3] Maybe you don't have a good retreat path. Maybe there's little good cover.

Sure all of these possibilities may be low probability. But having to use your gun is low probability too.

The point is that you can't know ahead of time what your problem will be -- what may happen or how it may happen. If you have only one way to deal with things, one tool, it may wind up being the wrong tool for the particular problem. The more versatile your skill set, the better off you're likely to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wagonman
...If you have time to aim you have time to tactically retreat....
Using your sights -- the flash sight picture -- is not really "taking aim." It is quick and reflexive. It really takes no appreciable time.
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Old September 22, 2009, 04:45 PM   #30
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Point vs Sight.... a tangent

At 7 yds the very best speedy handgun shooter I ever saw had been an Orkin man for over 20 years.

He could shoot a golf ball until the mag was empty and never sighted the gun.

With enough ammo anyone could develop this skill.

..... I'm just sayin'.......
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Old September 22, 2009, 04:57 PM   #31
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Using your sights -- the flash sight picture -- is not really "taking aim." It is quick and reflexive. It really takes no appreciable time.
And that's the truth of it. Given's PowerPoint presentation showed this. It 'flashed' the sight pictures several types, some with the sights dead on, some with the front sight high, or left, or low, or right, or a combo of that, to .1 second and each of the viewers guessed where the shot would land. All of them gave the right responses. It just took .1 second (or less cause we didn't go any faster) to verify the sight alignment.

At very close range you do not need a perfect sight alignment, but by verifying every time you shoot and practice, you will ingrain that response and align the gun properly. What is more, the hits will be GOOD hits. No peripheral hits. It takes just a flash sight picture and a good surprise break (another Cooper idea).

The surprise break is trigger control folks. Another must if you want to hit well, and I don't care what method of shooting, trigger control is a must.

Quote:
With enough ammo anyone could develop this skill.
And that's why I'm a big proponent of IDPA. That's were in practice you burn up alot of ammo to get that very skill Dragon. You not only get more trigger time but you practice good technique and tactics.
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Old September 22, 2009, 05:09 PM   #32
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From some posts...

... the ones along the lines of, "if you have time to aim, you have time to retreat"...

... I have to wonder how long people think it takes to aim? I'm not all that fast, and I have knocked down six 8" plates at 11 yards in 4.5 sec for my current personal best. (Average so far is just over 6 sec) No way I could hit those at that range without a flash sight picture, pointing would just not quite cut it. Yet I don't think .75 sec per target is that all that glacially slow... and even 1.07 sec per target isn't all that bad.

Beats the heck out of missing 3 out of 6 (or worse) to shave off a second or two.
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Old September 22, 2009, 05:26 PM   #33
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Quote:
Using your sights -- the flash sight picture -- is not really "taking aim." It is quick and reflexive. It really takes no appreciable time
That is pretty much what I am refering to, not hip shooting. Get that front sight on threat squeeze the trigger repeat as needed.
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Old September 22, 2009, 05:28 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deaf Smith
...The surprise break is trigger control folks. Another must if you want to hit well, and I don't care what method of shooting, trigger control is a must...
Ain't that the truth. If you jerk the trigger, you're going to miss (or get a peripheral hit) no matter what.

When the front and rear sights are aligned, wherever the front sight is, whether or not you see it, when the shot breaks is where the bullet will hit (at least within an inch or so at handgun distances). If the trigger gets jerked and the front sight moves as the shot breaks, where the front sight has moved to is where the bullet will hit; and it doesn't take much to move the front sight off target entirely.

One thing I learned in my Cowboy Action Shooting days was that no target is too close or too large to miss. We shot large metal targets close in (probably too close). Yet sometimes even experienced shooters missed completely.
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Old September 22, 2009, 07:42 PM   #35
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Quote:
[1] He doesn't necessarily have to be that far away, especially if he has a gun.

[2] Maybe you have an incapacitated companion. Do you plan to abandon him/her?

[3] Maybe you don't have a good retreat path. Maybe there's little good cover.

Sure all of these possibilities may be low probability. But having to use your gun is low probability too.

The point is that you can't know ahead of time what your problem will be -- what may happen or how it may happen. If you have only one way to deal with things, one tool, it may wind up being the wrong tool for the particular problem. The more versatile your skill set, the better off you're likely to be.
then i close the distance, since that would be the only option left.
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Old September 22, 2009, 08:07 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by troy_mclure
then i close the distance, since that would be the only option left.
I guess that would be your only option, unless you want to now take the time and trouble to give yourself another option -- by learning to use your sights to be able to shoot quickly and accurately and get hits over a wide range of distances to your target.

I have that option, and I like it better than closing on a guy whose trying to kill me.
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Old September 22, 2009, 08:26 PM   #37
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One thing I learned in my Cowboy Action Shooting days was that no target is too close or too large to miss.
That reminds me fiddletown of an IDPA match I ran. I had as a surprise gun a J frame chief's .38. I asked everyone if they knew how to shoot one. Everyone raised their hands and said, 'Yep'. Savvy bunch those shooters with all their fancy 1911s and Glocks and 'photo vest tactical' gear.

Well after they ran their gun dry they ditched their gun and grabbed the Chiefs. FIVE OF THE SHOOTERS MISSED THE WHOLE BACKSTOP! At least that's how many did it before I stopped them and read them the riot act. I told them they signed a no-sue statement but anyone that got shot a half a mile away didn't! I told them to AIM and hit the target. Most of them shot all over the target. That DA pull and the kick of that little gun was just too much for them. So much for their trigger control!

Well that was my education as to what people think they can shoot but can’t. I know some of them pack little .38s all the time!
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Old September 22, 2009, 08:28 PM   #38
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My question is for the close ranges you need point shooting/retention skills is this something a person even needs to practice? I've shot a lot in my life and have always used sights for all practice and I've never had any problems with retention drills in IDPA. I can't imagine a situation that would require point shooting where my natural gun-handling from 30+ years wouldn't be adaquate.

also I'm not saying don't practice I'm saying I belive point shooting will be a byproduct of signifigent training and practice with the sights.
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Last edited by mavracer; September 22, 2009 at 08:35 PM.
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Old September 22, 2009, 09:16 PM   #39
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mavracer,

Yes it needs practice. Renention shooting can be from 0 on out to say, 3 yards. It may be while you are grappling with an opponent. It may be while you are moving backwards or to the side. You may be defending yourself with the other hand in the process (or using the other hand to shield another.)

The hits have to still be good hits. Sold COM, high COM (upper chest) or pelvis if thats all you can aim for at the time.

You have to make sure your off hand and arm are out of the way when firing least they get shot in the heat of the enguagment.

You have to practice, if wearing a coat or jacket, to cant the gun to one side (presuming it's an simi-auto) to keep it from malfunctioning due to your coat or bullet proof vest.

It has to be practice at odd angles in case you are off balance when you had to use it.

And again, good hits.

So yes, retention shooting needs to be practiced and here is a way:

1. Soft air guns that match your carry gun.
2. Make a laser gun like I did out of a soft air gun.
3. Use 'red' or 'blue' training guns and partners and practice grappling attacks to hone both your H2H skills and retention shooting skills (and that includes drawing the gun from under your concealment while being attacked.)
4. Get a .22 unit for your carry gun and practice live fire on the range at retention distance.

I use options 2, 3, and 4 myself.
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Old September 22, 2009, 09:41 PM   #40
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Quote:
You have to make sure your off hand and arm are out of the way when firing least they get shot in the heat of the enguagment.

You have to practice, if wearing a coat or jacket, to cant the gun to one side (presuming it's an simi-auto) to keep it from malfunctioning due to your coat or bullet proof vest.
good points and I would say practicing from retention is important but I'm not worried about my accuracy at these ranges.
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Quote:
originally posted my Mike Irwin
My handguns are are for one purpose only, though...
The starter gun on the "Fat man's mad dash tactical retreat."
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Old September 23, 2009, 08:27 AM   #41
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The problem is most confuse the principle shooting tactics implied for military with that for a civilian. Unfortunately there's a percentage of people that get a permit and go Gunho! They Get ready to take on WW111 yet never Had any real Tactical training let alone experience!
Point shooting as related to military, You have to remember and realize it's a must they in most cases have to lay down a field of fire. It doesn't matter if those rds are hits as long as there close enough to keep the bad guys head down so maneuvering can take place! This does not apply to civilian point shooting were more sight alignment is necessary due to responsibility of each rd fired and need for more accurate fire.Civilian Point shooting or the way I do it anyway is more of just keeping my front sight aligned on my target but not taking the time to totally align with the rear sigh,of course if time would allow I would,it all depends on the incident on hand!
Nothing in Life is 100%,there's certain things that aren't going to pertain Tactics developed for LEO/Military that are then adapted for civilian Sd. You have to adapt and figure out what makes logical sense to use and what to drop out of the system and not just take everything for face value.
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Old September 23, 2009, 08:40 AM   #42
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I didn't know there was a "BlackwaterUSA" anymore, I thought they were xi or xe or something?
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Old September 27, 2009, 02:48 PM   #43
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The military/contracting arm of Blackwater is now "Xe". The training and instruction facilities now operate under the name US Training Center.
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Old September 27, 2009, 04:59 PM   #44
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Point vs Use of Sights

Time for me to step on some toes. Do you guys read what you type, or use spell check or check your grammer before you submit it? By and large, I agree with Matt Temkin, but I also have thoughts of my own.
First, there are several different levels of focus you need to be aware of, but like anything else, learning how they affect you is a matter of practice.
There are in fact distances where sights are not needed, giving you that .01 second you think is not very important, and as you know, these distances will vary from person to person. There are also distances where you need to focus totally on the front sight, this too will vary from person to person.
To me, none of the competetive shooting sports are geared towards preparing for a lethal confrontation, but I think they are fun and do help to improve fundamentals.
There is not enough room here to address everything, and I'm sure there will be comments about the things I don't touch on, so be it.
Misses are obviously the result of many variables, but not using the sight at CQB distances is not the primary cause. Pre ignition push, lack of understanding or application of the grip, to include setting the wrist and elbow, and a lack of practicing these things to an acceptable level on a square range are at the forefront. After that, I firmly believe the largest portion of survival skills "training" needs to occur in a FOF environment. Slowly at first, so you can observe and think about what you are doing and what you need to be doing. Obviously, all training is false, because nothing can replicate the stress of a real life encounter, but FOF does help to bridge that gap and "training" in this environment is the only way (unless you participate in the real thing) to reach a skill level where you are able to respond the way you want to, rather than the way your stressed brain forces you to. Understand, from extremely close, to relatively close confrontations, dynamic movement is a absolute neccesity. This movement, makes it extremely difficult to focus on the sights, especially using a two hand grip. Using a one hand grip will help smooth, or reduce the bounce as you move, therefore, making sight acquisition somewhat easier, if you can revert to the thinking side of your brain after the initial startle response. In my opinion, the only advantage to a two hand grip is it's ability, when applied properly, to get the weapon re-aligned more quickly with the target, which in turn, equates to some faster follow up shots, and no, it's not just as fast to acquire a two hand grip from the holster as a one hand grip and first shot. Use the timer and prove it to yourself. Sorry, I got a little off subject there. There were a lot of valid observations made here, but I think we were focusing on handgun fighting here, not just handgun shooting. Don't be afraid to step outside the box and try something different, not just for a few repitions, but long enough to see how it works with some level of competency. You might be surprised at the result. Hope I did not bore you, I know it was long. Stay Safe!
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Old September 27, 2009, 05:55 PM   #45
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by troy_mclure
then i close the distance, since that would be the only option left.

I guess that would be your only option, unless you want to now take the time and trouble to give yourself another option -- by learning to use your sights to be able to shoot quickly and accurately and get hits over a wide range of distances to your target.

I have that option, and I like it better than closing on a guy whose trying to kill me.
using my sights doesnt give me any more range than point shooting from a "mouse gun", and they have to come close to get my wallet/money.
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Old September 27, 2009, 06:03 PM   #46
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Everyone here has made many valid and great points, so rather than be redundant i will give what unique input I feel I can. I recieved some very serious (read "expensive") training from the US Training Center, formerly Blackwater Training Center (with the name change to XE Int'l they changed the training center facility name as well, same staff and teachers, all the employees were still calling it blackwater too)

I was an passable shooter before i attended those classes. i mangaed to qualify for a firearms carry guard card, but thats not saying much. I am a remarkable shooter after attending those classes. We learned first hand that it takes only a fraction of a second more time to get sight alignment then to instinctively shoot, but your accuracy goes through the roof! everyone one in the class was shooting at least 100 percent better by the weeks end.

at 21 feet i will consistently put a bullet in an 8 inch target, from holstered, in 1.5 seconds all day long. we timed it. i promise you i am looking through my sites. when not properly sighting we typically shaved a .25 of a seconds time and also usually missed. follow up shots will always take longer than properly sighting and hitting the first time. and i have more ammo left than you.

Blackwater teaches the modern isosceles method of pistol shooting. one of the main reasons for this/strengths of this style is that it enables some of the fastest reacquisition of sites on follow up shots. and it works really well.
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Old September 27, 2009, 06:04 PM   #47
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mddevildog,

If you are referring to type 1,2,3,4 focuses this is well know (Brian Enos.) But with flash sight picture it's not about how well you focus on the sights, but seeing the relationship of the sights. As long as you can see the relationship then you have the 'picture' and have verified the sight alignment.

FOF is best used to find out what deficiency you have in a particular area so you can train to overcome that deficiency. When used as a laboratory to find out what works and not works it then tends to be limited by the experience of the participants. If the only participants are inexperience, you will only see techniques that are limited, limited by their lack of experience. This can give a false view.

This is particularly true of both sides of the FOF scenario are inexperienced.

And that is why one must be careful how they run FOF scenarios and keep in mind the abilities of those involved.

As for sights .vs. point shooting, as I posted about Tom Givens classes, 50 of his students have been in gunfights and all have prevailed. That is no 'game' or competition.

For those with limited budget/time a form of retention shooting and a form of sighted fire covers all bases and no need to learn a third form of shooting.
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Old September 27, 2009, 06:11 PM   #48
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Yes, I agree.
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Old September 27, 2009, 08:12 PM   #49
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At over 7 yards I will use flash sighting and at a point I will use aimed fire but there are cases where using them is impractical. at point blank range you do not want to stick your weapon out far enough for the other guy to grab it, at that point he can actually get a better grip on it than you and it is useless. in those cases you want to keep it close and protected by your body when you fire and in that position sights are useless. Use sights at times but know how to shoot without them also,
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Old September 28, 2009, 12:04 AM   #50
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Quote:
To me, none of the competetive shooting sports are geared towards preparing for a lethal confrontation
I disagree, every time I shoot a bullseye match, my scores or groups of my carry pistol goes up.

After a 2700 where I spend the day hanging on the front sight carries over to my carry pistol. When I dont shoot bullseye for a while my shooting of my carry pistol gets worse. That concentration carries over, now I just need to shoot more 2700s.
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