The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old May 27, 2005, 08:57 AM   #51
CastleBravo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 1999
Posts: 2,144
Quote:
IF you were in a situation where you had to draw your weapon and point at a BG (Because said BG was about to assualt, rob, rape etc. your wife, SO, friend etc.) AND you felt compelled to warn before you fire (perhaps because the mall is full of folks milling about or some other reason)
Those really don't go together. If the assault is really imminent, you don't have time to do anything but draw and shoot until the threat is gone.
CastleBravo is offline  
Old May 27, 2005, 10:04 AM   #52
skidmark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2005
Location: Richmond VA - home of a street full of second-place trophies.
Posts: 151
Quote:
IF you were in a situation where you had to draw your weapon and point at a BG (Because said BG was about to assualt, rob, rape etc. your wife, SO, friend etc.) AND you felt compelled to warn before you fire (perhaps because the mall is full of folks milling about or some other reason)

What do you YELL?
Lots of good, well-thought-out responses provided, and really good discussions about why one should or should not provide a verbal warning, or what the contents of the warning should be. Lots to think about.

But the scanario as given does not give me a lot of time to think about what I should or could or would do. And some of the responses seem to have missed a very important piece of the scenario.

First of all, if the BG was about to anything, I would not be thinking about pulling iron. I would be yelling things like "Look out!" "Behind you (On your (left)(right)!" or "Hey, MoFo, what do you think you are doing?"

If the assault were taking place, it probably comes down to some sort of adrenalin-releasing war cry before, during and/or after trigger press, followed by a perhaps less high-volumed "Would some person please be so good as to telephone 9-1-1 and summons assistance to the scene?" Either that or a rather lengthy semon directed at the recently deceased concerning his behavior, parentage, offspring, and how he will be spending the rest of eternity.

stay safe.

skidmark
skidmark is offline  
Old May 27, 2005, 10:34 AM   #53
Duxman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2005
Location: VA
Posts: 1,294
Good point Skidmark.

Castle Bravo - I've got to disagree with you. The FBI agent at the scene was able to draw his weapon and intimidate the assailant without further bloodshed. A well trained civilian with a CC weapon should be able to do the same.

I dont think its as black and white as - if you have to draw your weapon you must use it. We are not in the middle ages.

In fact, the statistics show that in most CC vs BG encounters - 91% of the time a shot is NOT fired. The BG runs away or surrenders at the presentation of the weapon.

http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/framedex.html
Duxman is offline  
Old May 27, 2005, 11:35 AM   #54
BatmanX
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 23, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 266
YO! BILLY IDOL! REBEL YELL BRO!

Just kidding.
There has been great information on what to yell and not yell.
I think skidmark tied it up pretty well.
__________________
NRA Life Member

Current shopping list:
Bersa Thunder 9mm
CZ SP01

Current Ownage:
CZ-P01
Bersa .380 (Duo tone)
Kel Tec P3AT (SG)
Stoeger 2000 (black syn.) 26"
Winchester Model 97 12 gauge FULL
Marlin Firearms Model 60 22LR
BatmanX is offline  
Old May 27, 2005, 11:43 AM   #55
Dave R
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2000
Location: Idaho
Posts: 6,073
FWIW, when I took my CCW class, the instructor taught us to yell if at all possible. Just "STOP!" or "DROP IT" or something like that.

If the perp stops, its your lucky day. You don't have to shoot anyone. You don't have to go to court and get sued by the family, etc.

If the perp doesn't stop, you stop him. You plan on going to court and getting sued, etc. Which is another reason that you only draw if its life or death.
__________________
I am Pro-Rights (on gun issues).
Dave R is offline  
Old May 27, 2005, 12:08 PM   #56
bclark1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 5, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,531
to jump around a bit too, to address some of the questions raised here, i'm definitely in agreement that you're not just "playing cop" by issuing a verbal warning prior to the utilization of deadly force. there are a variety of situations that it would be wise to draw your weapon but not immediately fire. basically any situation where the potential exists for greivous bodily harm would suggest your weapon should be drawn. but if it's not being inflicted or absolutely and indisputably about to be, you probably shouldn't just start shooting. even without obvious bodily harm as a factor... here's an example you walk into your house and see an intruder, and you have the drop on him. you don't know if he's armed but he's certainly not pointing a gun at you. do you a) pull, start shooting, find out it was your aunt setting up your surprise party in the dark after the fact, b) say "hey what are you doing" and ruin your element of surprise, allowing the quicker-drawing BG to smoke you AND get your collector's edition DVD of "the princess diaries," or c) draw your weapon so you are prepared for whatever but hold off on blasting until you make sure that your aunt made that liver dish you hate and deserves it.
bclark1 is offline  
Old May 27, 2005, 12:17 PM   #57
Topthis
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Posts: 863
I like to yell..."finally, Finally, FINALLY!!!!" or, since I have watched way too many John Wayne movies...I try to do my version of an Apache War Cry...which really freaks them out, because I am Korean!!
Topthis is offline  
Old May 27, 2005, 12:20 PM   #58
BatmanX
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 23, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 266
/edit: In response to clark's new question: /edit end

Although this is a direct hijack of thread.

Depends on what state you are in.
Here in MN, I would have to retreat the same way I came in and call the Policia. (after drawing my gun just in case he turns around and has one also)

In the state of Texas and now FL - I would draw my gun and observe.
Make sure I am in the correct position to be at an advantage - being aware if there is more than 1 - making sure his buddy didn't just see me come in and have the drop on me.

In either situation, if someone else is with me, or my fiance is with me, I would motion them to go back the way they came and call policia.
__________________
NRA Life Member

Current shopping list:
Bersa Thunder 9mm
CZ SP01

Current Ownage:
CZ-P01
Bersa .380 (Duo tone)
Kel Tec P3AT (SG)
Stoeger 2000 (black syn.) 26"
Winchester Model 97 12 gauge FULL
Marlin Firearms Model 60 22LR
BatmanX is offline  
Old May 27, 2005, 12:33 PM   #59
SamD
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 18, 2004
Location: Nueva Mexico
Posts: 166
Don't say anything,
Never give away a tactical advantage like surprise, the most important advantage you can have.
I am not in competition with the FBI, not trying to intimidate, wheedle or cajole, and not trying to take anyone into custody, just saving a life.
The only reason to shoot. It has nothing to do with the dark ages, I don't draw unless I have already comitted to a course of action.

Sam
__________________
"It's too late to work within the system,
but too early to shoot the bastards"
SamD is offline  
Old May 27, 2005, 12:36 PM   #60
Superhornet
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 24, 2005
Location: florida
Posts: 292
I spent thirty three years in the military terminating Commies for Christ and haved carried a CW for the last sixteen years as a civilian. And never had to draw it.. I'm not a Dirty Harry playing at cops and robbers. In some places I have seen just how evil humans can be. If the first thought that enters your mind while you are armed is, "I hope I don't get sued if I have to use this gun", please leave your weapon home or in the car. If I had to draw the weapon, the situation has already reached 90% of the point of no return. If there is time to converse, only four small words are necessary directed at the attacker. See you in Hell......
Superhornet is offline  
Old May 27, 2005, 12:51 PM   #61
novus collectus
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Maryland
Posts: 940
What about the bystanders. If a women has her 4 year old kid with her and is close to you, then shooting the woman with the knife may also permanently damage the hearing of the girl. Someone standing on the other side of the knife wielding women may not know to remove himself from the line of fire because something was not yelled to warn them. Since it was a mall, how about the propane tanks on sale that are behind the knife wielder?

Sure, if the person had a gun, then the proper thing to do is to shoot. But when it is a knife or a baseball bat, then when is prudence required to protect the safety of others from your reactions versus the borderline immediate threat that may be handled without a discharge? (when I say "borderline immediate threat" I mean the difference of having a split second to react compared to a few seconds).

I am not trying to make a statement, but these are honest questions from one who has no training or experience.
novus collectus is offline  
Old May 27, 2005, 01:20 PM   #62
bclark1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 5, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,531
to batman, yea, i was thinking in the premise of no retreat. if you have that element of surprise it probably most wisely would be used to step back and call someone else to use force so that you're not at risk at all.
bclark1 is offline  
Old May 27, 2005, 01:27 PM   #63
Superhornet
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 24, 2005
Location: florida
Posts: 292
Holy cow folks ??? Some of these responses are just PC to a point that is unbelieveable ...Hell, just hand your gun to the perp and let him shoot you, and tell him he is responsible for any collateral damage done to Mary Beths hearing, damage to Sears Craftman chainsaws and the hole in Starbucks coffee pot......I am sure the perp will have second thoughts and turn over a new leaf in his life...get real........
Superhornet is offline  
Old May 27, 2005, 02:17 PM   #64
novus collectus
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Maryland
Posts: 940
Allright let me put it a different way. If an 8 year old kid was standing behind the woman with a knife, would you shoot immediatley, of would you yell for the kid to move first? If you were surrounded by explosives, would you think twice about blowing yourself up with an overpenetration of a miss? How is it that worrying about innocent people getting hurt, shot, or blown up being PC? Sounds like it is something that should be considered during training. I am not suggesting that this be thought of after the situation has arisen because that would be as silly as you suggest it is, but I am talking about things that might be addressed before hand so that terrible results do not occur to people that the concealed carry permit holder has as much of a responsibility to protect.
novus collectus is offline  
Old May 27, 2005, 02:48 PM   #65
Porkchops
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 29, 2005
Posts: 105
In the CCW class I took, the instructor suggested yelling in order to open up your breathing pipes and take control.

His opinion was that police officers yell when they're in a dangerous confrontation as a means of (aside from identification) making sure they're breathing and aggressive.

I've never been in a situation, and I assume most of you (or my instructor) haven't either. But, given the stress of such an event, it's not unreasonable to think that panic might hit you. A bit like anticipating the big drop on a roller coaster??

To me it sounds like yelling would let the attacker know you're serious, and it may even be intimidating (depending on what your voice sounds like--if you've got a football-coach voice, then all the better). Yelling might also alert bystanders to the situation.


Another thought from my class was that if you have to pull out your weapon, be prepared to use it lethally. Don't worry about a fair fight at that point--win at all costs. Victims don't have to be fair, they just have to stay alive.

Protecting others who are victims is legal where I live, even if you don't know them.
Porkchops is offline  
Old May 27, 2005, 05:20 PM   #66
SamD
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 18, 2004
Location: Nueva Mexico
Posts: 166
Sorry folks,
I'm with SuperHornet.

You are getting waaaayyyy to anal on this. :barf:
Take the best shot you can get, under the best condition you can get and stop whizzing in your britches.

You can what if and what if and what if till the end of eternity and never get anywhere. Shoot the BG till they are not capable of being a threat and get on with living.

Sam
P.S.
Bushwhack 'em, never give a bad guy/gal an even break!
__________________
"It's too late to work within the system,
but too early to shoot the bastards"

Last edited by SamD; May 27, 2005 at 05:39 PM. Reason: Add a little truth
SamD is offline  
Old May 27, 2005, 09:51 PM   #67
3 weelin geezer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 25, 2004
Posts: 438
I would say nothing. Just a polite smile as I grab his neck and knee him in the biscuits really hard. OOF!
3 weelin geezer is offline  
Old May 27, 2005, 10:46 PM   #68
2fast2curious
Member
 
Join Date: May 17, 2005
Location: San Diego,California
Posts: 31
I am gonna make you a 147(294 if you are gonna shoot twice) grains havier!!!!!! Ask me how!!!!! JK
To those who say to shoot without a warning. Don't you think you can stop/end the bad guy threat without shooting but by just warning him.
2fast2curious is offline  
Old May 28, 2005, 11:59 AM   #69
Denny Hansen
Staff Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 29, 2001
Location: Prescott Valley, AZ
Posts: 2,422
In my very humble opinions there are simply too many variable to give a pat answer.
What’s the distance? Dennis Tueller made the 21-foot rule a starting point. Many folks and departments are now saying 30 feet is a more realistic range at which to engage someone armed with a knife.

How crowded is the mall? Remember, you are accountable for the terminal resting point of every projectile you launch down range.

Making holes in a one-dimensional piece of paper at a known distance is a lot different than what will probably actually happen. If the BG is facing you belt buckle to belt buckle and not doing anything, you have no reason to shoot. In real life, the BG is probably moving away, towards you, or laterally. Have you practiced on moving targets enough to ensure a hit?

You probably should be moving, if not to make yourself a harder target, then to get a better angle on the BG without hitting an innocent person. Have you practiced moving while shooting at a target that is also moving? It’s a tad harder than the silver screen would have us believe, and this is not even taking into account panicking innocents who may be fleeing though your field of fire.

If you have the luxury of time and distance, yelling commands may or may not help in court later. Based on my experience and watching hundreds of students in classes, shooting on the move while trying to engage a target that is also moving, and simultaneously shouting commands while still trying to watch the front sight and control the trigger usually results only in making small, temporary holes in the atmosphere which immediately fill themselves back in.

Just my .02

Denny
__________________
S.W.A.T. Magazine
Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World
Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook
Denny Hansen is offline  
Old May 28, 2005, 12:03 PM   #70
FrankDrebin
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 21, 2004
Posts: 1,101
Being from Detroit, I would pull my gun with my right hand, put out my left hand, palm out, and yell "STOP....in the name of looooooove...."
FrankDrebin is offline  
Old May 28, 2005, 12:40 PM   #71
IZinterrogator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 8, 2004
Location: Prescott Valley, AZ
Posts: 2,457
Don't forget to shake your hips while you do it, Frank.
__________________
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!” - Samuel Adams
IZinterrogator is offline  
Old May 28, 2005, 02:04 PM   #72
FrankDrebin
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 21, 2004
Posts: 1,101
Yes, that goes without saying.
FrankDrebin is offline  
Old May 28, 2005, 03:16 PM   #73
KSFreeman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 9, 2001
Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America
Posts: 5,418
I yell, "Mommy!"

Frank, how do you get changed and assemble the backup singers so quickly in the middle of the fight?
__________________
"Arguments of policy must give way to a constitutional command." Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 602 (1980).
KSFreeman is offline  
Old May 28, 2005, 03:17 PM   #74
Denny Hansen
Staff Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 29, 2001
Location: Prescott Valley, AZ
Posts: 2,422
Breaking News:
Dianna Ross and The Supremes Foil Mall Stabbing; film at 11

Denny
__________________
S.W.A.T. Magazine
Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World
Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook
Denny Hansen is offline  
Old May 28, 2005, 03:39 PM   #75
3 weelin geezer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 25, 2004
Posts: 438
I'll jump in as backup if I'm around. Ya wanna see me do the funky chikin? cha-cha-cha....cha-cha-cha. There. How was that?
3 weelin geezer is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.12962 seconds with 8 queries