May 27, 2005, 08:57 AM | #51 | |
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May 27, 2005, 10:04 AM | #52 | |
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But the scanario as given does not give me a lot of time to think about what I should or could or would do. And some of the responses seem to have missed a very important piece of the scenario. First of all, if the BG was about to anything, I would not be thinking about pulling iron. I would be yelling things like "Look out!" "Behind you (On your (left)(right)!" or "Hey, MoFo, what do you think you are doing?" If the assault were taking place, it probably comes down to some sort of adrenalin-releasing war cry before, during and/or after trigger press, followed by a perhaps less high-volumed "Would some person please be so good as to telephone 9-1-1 and summons assistance to the scene?" Either that or a rather lengthy semon directed at the recently deceased concerning his behavior, parentage, offspring, and how he will be spending the rest of eternity. stay safe. skidmark |
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May 27, 2005, 10:34 AM | #53 |
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Good point Skidmark.
Castle Bravo - I've got to disagree with you. The FBI agent at the scene was able to draw his weapon and intimidate the assailant without further bloodshed. A well trained civilian with a CC weapon should be able to do the same. I dont think its as black and white as - if you have to draw your weapon you must use it. We are not in the middle ages. In fact, the statistics show that in most CC vs BG encounters - 91% of the time a shot is NOT fired. The BG runs away or surrenders at the presentation of the weapon. http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/framedex.html |
May 27, 2005, 11:35 AM | #54 |
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YO! BILLY IDOL! REBEL YELL BRO!
Just kidding. There has been great information on what to yell and not yell. I think skidmark tied it up pretty well.
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May 27, 2005, 11:43 AM | #55 |
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FWIW, when I took my CCW class, the instructor taught us to yell if at all possible. Just "STOP!" or "DROP IT" or something like that.
If the perp stops, its your lucky day. You don't have to shoot anyone. You don't have to go to court and get sued by the family, etc. If the perp doesn't stop, you stop him. You plan on going to court and getting sued, etc. Which is another reason that you only draw if its life or death.
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May 27, 2005, 12:08 PM | #56 |
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to jump around a bit too, to address some of the questions raised here, i'm definitely in agreement that you're not just "playing cop" by issuing a verbal warning prior to the utilization of deadly force. there are a variety of situations that it would be wise to draw your weapon but not immediately fire. basically any situation where the potential exists for greivous bodily harm would suggest your weapon should be drawn. but if it's not being inflicted or absolutely and indisputably about to be, you probably shouldn't just start shooting. even without obvious bodily harm as a factor... here's an example you walk into your house and see an intruder, and you have the drop on him. you don't know if he's armed but he's certainly not pointing a gun at you. do you a) pull, start shooting, find out it was your aunt setting up your surprise party in the dark after the fact, b) say "hey what are you doing" and ruin your element of surprise, allowing the quicker-drawing BG to smoke you AND get your collector's edition DVD of "the princess diaries," or c) draw your weapon so you are prepared for whatever but hold off on blasting until you make sure that your aunt made that liver dish you hate and deserves it.
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May 27, 2005, 12:17 PM | #57 |
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I like to yell..."finally, Finally, FINALLY!!!!" or, since I have watched way too many John Wayne movies...I try to do my version of an Apache War Cry...which really freaks them out, because I am Korean!!
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May 27, 2005, 12:20 PM | #58 |
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/edit: In response to clark's new question: /edit end
Although this is a direct hijack of thread. Depends on what state you are in. Here in MN, I would have to retreat the same way I came in and call the Policia. (after drawing my gun just in case he turns around and has one also) In the state of Texas and now FL - I would draw my gun and observe. Make sure I am in the correct position to be at an advantage - being aware if there is more than 1 - making sure his buddy didn't just see me come in and have the drop on me. In either situation, if someone else is with me, or my fiance is with me, I would motion them to go back the way they came and call policia.
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May 27, 2005, 12:33 PM | #59 |
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Don't say anything,
Never give away a tactical advantage like surprise, the most important advantage you can have. I am not in competition with the FBI, not trying to intimidate, wheedle or cajole, and not trying to take anyone into custody, just saving a life. The only reason to shoot. It has nothing to do with the dark ages, I don't draw unless I have already comitted to a course of action. Sam
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May 27, 2005, 12:36 PM | #60 |
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I spent thirty three years in the military terminating Commies for Christ and haved carried a CW for the last sixteen years as a civilian. And never had to draw it.. I'm not a Dirty Harry playing at cops and robbers. In some places I have seen just how evil humans can be. If the first thought that enters your mind while you are armed is, "I hope I don't get sued if I have to use this gun", please leave your weapon home or in the car. If I had to draw the weapon, the situation has already reached 90% of the point of no return. If there is time to converse, only four small words are necessary directed at the attacker. See you in Hell......
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May 27, 2005, 12:51 PM | #61 |
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What about the bystanders. If a women has her 4 year old kid with her and is close to you, then shooting the woman with the knife may also permanently damage the hearing of the girl. Someone standing on the other side of the knife wielding women may not know to remove himself from the line of fire because something was not yelled to warn them. Since it was a mall, how about the propane tanks on sale that are behind the knife wielder?
Sure, if the person had a gun, then the proper thing to do is to shoot. But when it is a knife or a baseball bat, then when is prudence required to protect the safety of others from your reactions versus the borderline immediate threat that may be handled without a discharge? (when I say "borderline immediate threat" I mean the difference of having a split second to react compared to a few seconds). I am not trying to make a statement, but these are honest questions from one who has no training or experience. |
May 27, 2005, 01:20 PM | #62 |
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to batman, yea, i was thinking in the premise of no retreat. if you have that element of surprise it probably most wisely would be used to step back and call someone else to use force so that you're not at risk at all.
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May 27, 2005, 01:27 PM | #63 |
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Holy cow folks ??? Some of these responses are just PC to a point that is unbelieveable ...Hell, just hand your gun to the perp and let him shoot you, and tell him he is responsible for any collateral damage done to Mary Beths hearing, damage to Sears Craftman chainsaws and the hole in Starbucks coffee pot......I am sure the perp will have second thoughts and turn over a new leaf in his life...get real........
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May 27, 2005, 02:17 PM | #64 |
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Allright let me put it a different way. If an 8 year old kid was standing behind the woman with a knife, would you shoot immediatley, of would you yell for the kid to move first? If you were surrounded by explosives, would you think twice about blowing yourself up with an overpenetration of a miss? How is it that worrying about innocent people getting hurt, shot, or blown up being PC? Sounds like it is something that should be considered during training. I am not suggesting that this be thought of after the situation has arisen because that would be as silly as you suggest it is, but I am talking about things that might be addressed before hand so that terrible results do not occur to people that the concealed carry permit holder has as much of a responsibility to protect.
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May 27, 2005, 02:48 PM | #65 |
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In the CCW class I took, the instructor suggested yelling in order to open up your breathing pipes and take control.
His opinion was that police officers yell when they're in a dangerous confrontation as a means of (aside from identification) making sure they're breathing and aggressive. I've never been in a situation, and I assume most of you (or my instructor) haven't either. But, given the stress of such an event, it's not unreasonable to think that panic might hit you. A bit like anticipating the big drop on a roller coaster?? To me it sounds like yelling would let the attacker know you're serious, and it may even be intimidating (depending on what your voice sounds like--if you've got a football-coach voice, then all the better). Yelling might also alert bystanders to the situation. Another thought from my class was that if you have to pull out your weapon, be prepared to use it lethally. Don't worry about a fair fight at that point--win at all costs. Victims don't have to be fair, they just have to stay alive. Protecting others who are victims is legal where I live, even if you don't know them. |
May 27, 2005, 05:20 PM | #66 |
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Sorry folks,
I'm with SuperHornet. You are getting waaaayyyy to anal on this. :barf: Take the best shot you can get, under the best condition you can get and stop whizzing in your britches. You can what if and what if and what if till the end of eternity and never get anywhere. Shoot the BG till they are not capable of being a threat and get on with living. Sam P.S. Bushwhack 'em, never give a bad guy/gal an even break!
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"It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards" Last edited by SamD; May 27, 2005 at 05:39 PM. Reason: Add a little truth |
May 27, 2005, 09:51 PM | #67 |
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I would say nothing. Just a polite smile as I grab his neck and knee him in the biscuits really hard. OOF!
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May 27, 2005, 10:46 PM | #68 |
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I am gonna make you a 147(294 if you are gonna shoot twice) grains havier!!!!!! Ask me how!!!!! JK
To those who say to shoot without a warning. Don't you think you can stop/end the bad guy threat without shooting but by just warning him. |
May 28, 2005, 11:59 AM | #69 |
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In my very humble opinions there are simply too many variable to give a pat answer.
What’s the distance? Dennis Tueller made the 21-foot rule a starting point. Many folks and departments are now saying 30 feet is a more realistic range at which to engage someone armed with a knife. How crowded is the mall? Remember, you are accountable for the terminal resting point of every projectile you launch down range. Making holes in a one-dimensional piece of paper at a known distance is a lot different than what will probably actually happen. If the BG is facing you belt buckle to belt buckle and not doing anything, you have no reason to shoot. In real life, the BG is probably moving away, towards you, or laterally. Have you practiced on moving targets enough to ensure a hit? You probably should be moving, if not to make yourself a harder target, then to get a better angle on the BG without hitting an innocent person. Have you practiced moving while shooting at a target that is also moving? It’s a tad harder than the silver screen would have us believe, and this is not even taking into account panicking innocents who may be fleeing though your field of fire. If you have the luxury of time and distance, yelling commands may or may not help in court later. Based on my experience and watching hundreds of students in classes, shooting on the move while trying to engage a target that is also moving, and simultaneously shouting commands while still trying to watch the front sight and control the trigger usually results only in making small, temporary holes in the atmosphere which immediately fill themselves back in. Just my .02 Denny
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May 28, 2005, 12:03 PM | #70 |
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Being from Detroit, I would pull my gun with my right hand, put out my left hand, palm out, and yell "STOP....in the name of looooooove...."
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May 28, 2005, 12:40 PM | #71 |
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Don't forget to shake your hips while you do it, Frank.
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May 28, 2005, 02:04 PM | #72 |
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Yes, that goes without saying.
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May 28, 2005, 03:16 PM | #73 |
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I yell, "Mommy!"
Frank, how do you get changed and assemble the backup singers so quickly in the middle of the fight?
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May 28, 2005, 03:17 PM | #74 |
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Breaking News:
Dianna Ross and The Supremes Foil Mall Stabbing; film at 11 Denny
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May 28, 2005, 03:39 PM | #75 |
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I'll jump in as backup if I'm around. Ya wanna see me do the funky chikin? cha-cha-cha....cha-cha-cha. There. How was that?
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