"Glock Leg"

[totaldla]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

I think you are referring to DEA agent Lee Paige. The incident was in Florida, not NYC. It's all over Youtube -- just Google "DEA agent shoots self"

Thank you. That was fun to watch again.

[stinkeypete]

In my life I have never seen a “life or death” situation but I have seen two negligent discharges. Fortunately both were in to the dirt.

As for “who advocates the Israeli/Mossad draw”... oddly enough it’s the Israeli police forces and the Mossad.

O.0

[TunnelRat]

As for “who advocates the Israeli/Mossad draw”... oddly enough it’s the Israeli police forces and the Mossad.

Which has more to do with techniques developed before the existence of firing pin blocks than anything else. A question might be, why do military forces and police forces the world over not follow the "Israeli" method (which existed before Israel was a country)? If we're going to point to the Israelis and Mossad as some case example of professionals doing it, there are even more professionals not doing it.

[stinkeypete]

I am not a professional. I suspect many commenting are also not.

What you suspect could be changed to what you know by reading about it.

[FITASC]

Popularity + No manual safety + people with no training buy them = glock leg.

If you NEED a manual safety in place of the one between your ears, YOU are the idiot and should not own guns; NDs with 1911s,, HPs, and others by folks who are too stupid to remove mag, clear chamber, lock back slide and check are everywhere - it isn't a Glock problem, it is an idiot or complacency problem

[TunnelRat]

I am not a professional. I suspect many commenting are also not.

I didn't say you were or I was. My point is I often see people refer to the Israelis when discussing Condition 3 carry as basically a, "Well they do it", sort of comment. And yes they do it, but a lot of people don't do it. If the argument is Condition 3 is valid because of the group of people that choose to do it, then it makes sense to consider the people that choose not to do it as well.

You don't have to be a professional to understand the reasons behind people that choose not to carry Condition 3. If you want to personally carry Condition 3, it's really of little concern to me. When you start calling people that point out the potential drawbacks of Condition 3 "mall commandos" then yeah I'm going to make a comment because there are plenty of people that are certainly not "mall commandos" that have explained the drawbacks.

There's no getting around the fact that carrying concealed versus carrying in a military capacity is different in terms of the likely threats faced (of course that depends on the role for either person). There are ways to interpret that difference. One way is to say that the likelihood of needing that firearm is much smaller so it makes sense to not have as ready access to the firearm in exchange for a reduced risk of a discharge. Another way is to say that unlike a soldier where that are at times front-lines and rear controlled areas, as a concealed carrier knowing when and where you will be in danger is not always a given. You may not have the advanced warning to put your pistol into a ready to fire state and you also have the added complexity of drawing from concealment versus drawing from a readily accessible holster. You also likely don't have a primary weapon such as a rifle, shotgun, etc. That might make you conclude that you need even more ready access to the firearm.

What you suspect could be changed to what you know by reading about it.

I'm not sure what I'm suspecting versus what I'm knowing here. I've done more than read about the carry conditions, I've tried practically all of them, including Condition 3. As for reading, I can link you to a number of articles by various people about the potential drawbacks of Condition 3. There's certainly plenty to read.

[GarandTd]

If you NEED a manual safety in place of the one between your ears, YOU are the idiot and should not own guns.

Why does it it always devolve to this? If you think the safety between your ears is infallible and foolproof make sure you have a mirror handy while you're calling out the title "idiot". There is nothing wrong with extra measures of safety, particularly where a mistake can be fatal.

[TunnelRat]

Why does it it always devolve to this?

Because people get emotionally attached to decisions they make when it comes to their personal protection. It then becomes an almost religious matter of converting people to your point of view so that you can validate your own choices from additional support.

If someone wants a safety on their pistol I don't consider him or her an idiot. Lots of people do differently than myself. I don't consider them all idiots. What they do doesn't really matter to me frankly. Rifles have safeties, shotguns have safeties. Somehow with training people remember to disengage them. While those firearms often don't have the internal drop safeties of modern pistols and are more readily accessible if being carried, people survived for a long time using safeties on pistols. Not every one of them died, not every one of them was an idiot. The same applies to striker fired pistols without safeties. Pick a system and train with it.

When I shot DA/SA predominantly, decocking became second nature and I trained so that the first DA shot wasn't problematic. Heck I remember training at SIG when all the instructors had were P-series hammer fired pistols as the P320 hadn't been released yet. Somehow the instructors and the rest of us survived.

[bamaranger]

Glock AD seem to come in different flavors. The takedown procedure has led to a couple. In our area, a trooper shot a tort lawyer in the butt (justice?) while demonstrating the takedown of his issue Glock in a shop. The obstructed trigger/holster is another, be it holstering, or a loaded, loose pistol in temp storage. Dorking with the factory trigger with an aftermarket wonder trigger led to another in my area.

DA/SA pistols are done. While a DA/SA was new idea in 1940, the striker fired pistol has now arrived and is not going away. I'll add that I have seen quite a few people who knew better, trained people, fail to decock under stress then reholster or relocate/navigate a barricade or location, resulting in an AD.
The decock lever, springs, struts, slots they run in, all add parts and complexity and openings for grit as well.

Note that the military's new striker fired pistol the M17/M18, will have an external safety.

[Nanuk]

Argue all you want about mall commando crap like “split seconds” and “one handed” but it simply comes down to training and then argue about how many condition 3 firearms are negligently discharged.

Mall Ninja? Attacks happen in fractions of seconds. Depends on the woods you are in. A cougar chewing on your head or a bear charging don't give you much time to draw, chamber (hope it works) aim and fire.

Did you know that most ND's happen with unloaded guns?

Do you have any idea why that is called Israeli carry?



It has nothing to do with high speed low drag commandos......
At the end of WWII when the UN set up Israel they were surrounded by enemies, similar to today...... They were desperate for arms, they got all kinds in all kinds of conditions. some unsafe to carry loaded. So, instead of trying to train all people all the different types of guns they opted to just have them carry with an empty chamber.

When I carry a 1911 or similar gun I carry it cocked and locked, or condition 1, wherever I am. When I carry a Glock its loaded and chambered, when I carry a revolver the cylinder is loaded, I don't own one that is unsafe to do so.

Condition 3 is for neophytes and others who cannot safely carry their pistol the correct way.

Never been a Ninja but I was in the Army for a spell and a cop for over 30 years, not to mention a lifelong competitive shooter and hunter.

[Lohman446]

Nothing looks classier to me when meeting a fella in the field with his break action shotgun open as he strolls to greet, or his pump slid back.

Funny thing. If you meet me in the fields bird hunting my shotgun will be open. My sidearm will be ready to fire.

[USNRet93]

Even with the thumb safety feature, the military will regret
its decision with the striker fired SIG. And it will return within very
few years to the SA/DA mode. The holstering of these SIGs
will cause untold trouble for the military.

Doubt that. This decision was mostly about $. NO WAY the DOD is going to 'throw away' this handgun, then spend a bunch more to test and pick pick ANOTHER..

Glock leg, what a giggle..Lotsa gun owners(millions??), other militarys, scads of law enforcement have figured out this and other 'striker' models..the military can too.

I love Glocks! Pull the trigger BANG. Don't pull the trigger.........

I guess it's time to get that YT video of the guy pulling a 1911 and shooting himself in the leg..or the one about the guy with a 1911, 'practicing' his draw and he shoots his finger off on his left hand..doh..

My response is that no matter how much I train I will still be safer with the gun I have chosen.

NDs with 1911s,, HPs, and others by folks who are too stupid to remove mag, clear chamber, lock back slide and check are everywhere - it isn't a Glock problem, it is an idiot or complacency problem

Yup, mee too..Glock 43, Glock 19..reholstering..What I have is a 'holster' where I cannot reholster my gun with the 'holster' in place(IWB, appendix)..I must take the 'holster' out, then reinstall it on my gun, then replace it into IWD..speed of reholtering means nada to me.

Raven Vanguard

[Lohman446]

Even with the thumb safety feature, the military will regret
its decision with the striker fired SIG. And it will return within very
few years to the SA/DA mode. The holstering of these SIGs
will cause untold trouble for the military.

As a non military member maybe I am drastically wrong on this but how often do you think a military member, even one actively carrying a pistol, draws and reholsters a sidearm? I would expect is very little and FAR less than active duty police officers.

[stinkeypete]

Much respect for those here with military or police service; and that is what I was attempting to express- I am not claiming what is right for professionals, I am not claiming what is “right” for anyone.

I am suggesting that for those without sufficient training and are carrying “administratively”, Condition 3 is safer. None in the chamber.

As we have discussed, the chances I will be attacked by a cougar are infinitesimally small so I take it as a light hearted joke when people mention cougar attacks. Or bear attacks in the lower 48.

Carrying a pistol while carrying a shotgun seems silly to me, unless it’s deer season or they don’t like picking pellets out of squirrels. Seems to me it’s faster and more powerful to close the action Of the shotgun.

I was just reading that the qualification standards for Israeli military and police for pistol is 1.2 seconds... holster to fire. Condition 3. Standard issues may be the usual Glocks, Jericho, or FN.

You fellas do what you feel safe with, but this is a thread about Bubba shooting himself in the leg. It seems more people shoot themselves negligently than are attacked by cougars and bears combined.

[AK103K]

The most dangerous gun in your hands, is one youre not familar with, and didnt take the time to bother to learn.

There are only a couple of basic handgun action types, so its not unreasonable or undoable, to have one of each, and practice regularly with them.

I think youre going to find if you spend some time with each of them, to actually learn to shoot and handle them properly, most all of the negative impressions you might have had, just melt away.

Its like anything else, self-induced ignorance really just hurts you.

Glocks are no more unsafe than anything else. The only way they would be, is if you are unsafe with them. Same as anything else.

[adamBomb]

If you NEED a manual safety in place of the one between your ears, YOU are the idiot and should not own guns.

Ever walk into a room and forget what you were looking for? Even misplace your car keys or wallet? Ever trip and fall on something you didn't see or bump into something by mistake? All humans make mistakes. Especially when tired, sick, feeling down, stressed, excited, in a rush, etc. Unfortunately training can only decrease your chances of an AD, it can never make them 0%. On a long enough time line every single person with a gun would have one. A manual safety decreases your chances even further. The human brain is NEVER going to be enough to decrease your chances to 0%. Now if you can show me some research showing me that humans never make mistakes, that our mind never wanders, etc I will believe that snake oil you are selling but come on that statement is some real bro science.

[Lohman446]

A manual safety decreases your chances even further.

I get the idea of the statement and I get that it has face validity. With that being said are we certain it is true? Are we more careful when holstering a Glock than we are a gun with a manual safety? I know I pay particular attention to a striker fired gun when re holstering because of the near paranoia around it. I'm not certain I am as careful with a 1911. I should be...

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by stinkeypete

I was just reading that the qualification standards for Israeli military and police for pistol is 1.2 seconds... holster to fire. Condition 3. Standard issues may be the usual Glocks, Jericho, or FN.

Link?


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[Glenn E. Meyer]

There is nothing new in this thread. Why should it continue?

Closed.