Ataturk airport attack - second attempt - Page 2

Double Naught Spy · September 14, 2016, 08:24 AM

BA, the issue isn't Monday morning quarterbacking, but analysis itself and the conclusions you drew from it.

Quote:

Personally, I think the guy did everything right up until the moment he was standing over the bad guy with ample opportunity for a point blank head shot. Instead, he ran for it, giving the terrorist time to detonate his device, which, I was told, killed the LEO and possibly others.

You have repeatedly stated that you have watched the video several times. You have commented on how things can be clearly seen. You have counted the seconds to help make your determination.

You have said you don't think there was a deadman switch because of the timing and how the terrorist can be clearly seen fiddling about his body. It is a very blurry video. What is clear to be seen?

Was it clear enough that you saw the terrorist getting shot or did you just see the terrorist fall to the ground? Did you see the cop get shot? He was shot, you know? He did survive, something you apparently did not know.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-hospital.html

What is in the terrorist's hands at the time? Can you see that?
What was the status of the officer's gun? Had it been damaged in the exchange of gunfire? Was he out of ammo?

What you seem to be failing to understand is that the officer's decision cannot be based on after-the-fact, multiple viewings of the situation. YOU determined that there was no deadman switch. You apparently think that the officer should have been able to arrive at the same conclusion, hence we was wrong for running away. But you didn't make that decision in real time like he did and you could not see what he was seeing. What you also fail to realize is that if he made the wrong assessment and there was a deadman switch, killing the terrorist would have resulted in his immediate death...since he was standing at point blank range, as you noted.

Now, what is the prudent decision for a person who hopes to remain alive? Shoot the terrorist in the head and maybe blow up immediately or evacuate the area?

Remember, there are no do-overs. You don't get to have the foresight of watching the video many times and counting clock seconds to determine what will happen. You have to decide on the fly, in real time, and if you guess wrong, BOOM!

B.A. · September 14, 2016, 08:50 AM

Double naught spy,

Thanks for the additional information and input. Judging by it, you may well be right and I may well be wrong.

It's nice to see a tactics and training thread end in agreement. If only by admission of assumptions.

I still don't think there was a dead switch though.

BA

Slowpoke Rodriguez · November 21, 2016, 06:47 PM

This is an interesting scenario that one should be aware of.

On the face of it, it would be out of policy (and probably illegal) to use lethal force on a subject that was downed and disarmed, but the suicide vest is something to check for nowadays, I suppose.

If you saw the subject wearing explosives, it could be reasonable to use lethal force to prevent them from triggering the device. I don't know about deadman switches and possibly time or command detonating devices, so probably the best course of action would indeed be to clear the area.

I will train to consider the possibility of explosive vests, then make an immediate decision. Immediately clearing the area is probably the way to go.

The Turkish cop did a good job, and I hope he survived.

Mainah · November 21, 2016, 07:23 PM

Never thought I'd type this here, but we have found something less relevant than debating the best caliber for a charging bear.

Old Bill Dibble · November 21, 2016, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Never thought I'd type this here, but we have found something less relevant than debating the best caliber for a charging bear.

IDK, bears kill only a couple of dozen people a year around the world. Suicide attackers are way ahead of them with numbers killed well into the thousands and wounded well into the tens of thousands. Bears have a limited range of movement and habitat that is outside of contact with most people. Suicide attackers can be literally anywhere there is a target.

Your average American is much more likely to have dealt with a suicide attacker or mass shooter (normally also a suicide attacker) at some point than with a charging bear. When you throw in the millions of Americans that served in Iraq and Afghanistan it really firms up.

2damnold4this · November 21, 2016, 08:34 PM

Thanks for the link DNS. I wondered whether the officer survived. It seemed from the video that he had time to get away and I'm glad he did.

Mainah · November 21, 2016, 08:56 PM

Old Bill, I hear you. But while more Americans have faced mass shootings and terrorists than bears I doubt that more of us have had to make split second decisions about dead man switches- here in the United States. Obviously that equation changes dramatically for those who served in combat.

Old Bill Dibble · November 22, 2016, 08:11 AM

That is true. Most people are going to do the smart thing an run as quickly as their feet will carry them in the other direction away from any attack. That strategy may or may not work for terrorists but it won't work with a bear at all.

psyfly · November 22, 2016, 09:27 AM

Removed. Already cited.

shafter · November 23, 2016, 07:20 PM

Quote:

On the face of it, it would be out of policy (and probably illegal) to use lethal force on a subject that was downed and disarmed, but the suicide vest is something to check for nowadays, I suppose.

If he's wearing an explosive vest I wouldn't consider him unarmed. If he's conscious and fiddling with it I think the cop would certainly be justified in shooting him. I think we'd all agree that if he was down and reaching for a gun it would be the same thing. It's all about ending the threat.

Just so there's no misunderstandings, I don't think a person is morally or legally justified in shooting an assailant who's down and out of the fight. When the threat is over, I'm over.

Slowpoke Rodriguez · November 26, 2016, 08:08 PM

Quote:

If he's wearing an explosive vest I wouldn't consider him unarmed. If he's conscious and fiddling with it I think the cop would certainly be justified in shooting him. I think we'd all agree that if he was down and reaching for a gun it would be the same thing. It's all about ending the threat.

I agree. My point was, you can't just use lethal force on a subject that is disarmed and down peremptorily UNLESS there is probable cause that they continue to pose a threat, like having explosives.

Quote:

...we have found something less relevant than debating the best caliber for a charging bear. ..

I think it is relevant as a training point, because as there have been several incidents of ISIS inspired shooters in the US and mass shooters tend to be suicidal. I'm not saying it is likely, but it is certainly something to consider.

November 22, 2016, 08:11 AM	#33
Old Bill Dibble Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2016 Posts: 802	That is true. Most people are going to do the smart thing an run as quickly as their feet will carry them in the other direction away from any attack. That strategy may or may not work for terrorists but it won't work with a bear at all. __________________ "Tragedy has been and will always be with us. Somewhere right now, evil people are planning evil things. All of us will do everything meaningful, everything we can do to prevent it, but each horrible act can’t become an axe for opportunists to cleave the very Bill of Rights that binds us."

November 22, 2016, 09:27 AM	#34
psyfly Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 932	Removed. Already cited. __________________ Show me the data Last edited by psyfly; November 22, 2016 at 09:33 AM.

September 14, 2016, 08:50 AM	#27
B.A. Member Join Date: May 20, 2008 Location: East Africa Posts: 67	Double naught spy, Thanks for the additional information and input. Judging by it, you may well be right and I may well be wrong. It's nice to see a tactics and training thread end in agreement. If only by admission of assumptions. I still don't think there was a dead switch though. BA

November 21, 2016, 06:47 PM	#28
Slowpoke Rodriguez Member Join Date: February 9, 2016 Posts: 18	This is an interesting scenario that one should be aware of. On the face of it, it would be out of policy (and probably illegal) to use lethal force on a subject that was downed and disarmed, but the suicide vest is something to check for nowadays, I suppose. If you saw the subject wearing explosives, it could be reasonable to use lethal force to prevent them from triggering the device. I don't know about deadman switches and possibly time or command detonating devices, so probably the best course of action would indeed be to clear the area. I will train to consider the possibility of explosive vests, then make an immediate decision. Immediately clearing the area is probably the way to go. The Turkish cop did a good job, and I hope he survived.

November 21, 2016, 07:23 PM	#29
Mainah Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2007 Posts: 1,119	Never thought I'd type this here, but we have found something less relevant than debating the best caliber for a charging bear.

November 21, 2016, 08:34 PM	#31
2damnold4this Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2009 Location: Athens, Georgia Posts: 2,526	Thanks for the link DNS. I wondered whether the officer survived. It seemed from the video that he had time to get away and I'm glad he did.

November 21, 2016, 08:56 PM	#32
Mainah Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2007 Posts: 1,119	Old Bill, I hear you. But while more Americans have faced mass shootings and terrorists than bears I doubt that more of us have had to make split second decisions about dead man switches- here in the United States. Obviously that equation changes dramatically for those who served in combat.