What is considered unlawful?

[PushPuller]

I apologize ahead of time if this has been asked before, but the other day on the way to the range I put my several handguns in their cases into my backpack. Iv always put the serial number/barcode info facing up and I usually leave the backpack unzipped with the top side of the cases showing. I ALWAYS put the ammunition in a separate bag away from the guns. in your opinions would this be blatantly breaking the law? an if it was would an officer make a serious issue out of it without the CCW?

Is it considered an unlawful concealed carry if you leave the pistol in the factory case? Even if the case is placed in the open.

Both scenarios are assuming that one doesn't have their CCW, in a gun legal state/city.

I know that local state and city laws apply most the weight in this situation but lets just assume you are in a vehicle driving to your range in anywhere USA and get pulled over by local police for a minor traffic infraction.

[Armed_Chicagoan]

There is no national transportation law, it depends entirely on the local laws.

[Spats McGee]

^^^ Exactly. There's no federal law on point, and the issues raised by your post would be entirely matters of state and local law.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by PushPuller

I know that local state and city laws apply most the weight in this situation but lets just assume you are in a vehicle driving to your range in anywhere USA and get pulled over by local police for a minor traffic infraction.

Let's assume that your question cannot be answered without knowing what state you are in.

In my state, it is illegal to transport a handgun off your own property unless you have a state-issued carry permit. The only exceptions are bringing a new purchase home from the gunshop, and taking a firearm to a gunshop or gunsmith for repair. Transport to a range for shooting requires a permit.

I don't think many states are as strict, but I suspect there are a few others.

[FITASC]

I transport my guns to the range in a range bag that also has my ammo in it' makes carrying it inside a lot easier. Not against the law where I live (FL)

[PushPuller]

Let's assume that your question cannot be answered without knowing what state you are in.

I am located in Nebraska. I have been doing some research all morning and have yet to find anything that specifically classifies what is considered concealed.

[FITASC]

From handgunlaw.us:

NE
Law is silent on loaded firearms in vehicles. You do have to have a permit/license valid in NE to carry a
concealed firearm in or outside a vehicle. It is illegal to car
ry a loaded Shotgun in a vehicle under NE Game
Laws.
You can carry a loaded handgun in a vehicle without a permit/l
icense if it is visible
.
Some cities have
ordinances against loaded visible handguns in vehicles W/O a permit.

Shotgun on Highway; Restrictions; Violation; Penalty.

It shall be unlawful to have or carry, except as permitted by law, any shotgun having shells in either the
chamber, receiver,
or magazine in or on any vehicle on any highway. Any person violating this section shall
be guilty of a Class III misdemeanor and shall be fined at least fifty dollars.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by PushPuller

I am located in Nebraska. I have been doing some research all morning and have yet to find anything that specifically classifies what is considered concealed.

I think you are looking for the wrong references. "Concealed" usually refers to "concealed carry," as in having a loaded firearm on your person. Moving one or more unloaded firearms in containers, off your body, from point A to point B is not "carry," it's "transport."

[DaleA]

Transport to a range for shooting requires a permit.

Good land!!! What does it take to get the permit?

You and FITASC (in a different thread) bring up a great point, if it can happen where you are, it could conceivably happen in my state too, and every other state.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by DaleA

Good land!!! What does it take to get the permit?

I assume that's directed at me.

A permit requires successful completion of a handgun safety class (the NRA Basic Pistol, or other course specifically approved by the State Police and involving live fire); submission of a state permit application form to the local police department; fingerprinting; passing a background check; waiting two or four times longer than statute allows; picking up a temporary permit from the local PD and then finding one of three (maybe four now) State Police offices who process carry permits and going there during their normal working hours (which are probably also your normal working hours) to convert the temporary permit to a state-issued permit that's good for five years.

Oh, and I neglected to mention money. LOTS of money. Most places around here charge $150 for the NRA Basic Pistol class. There's a fee to the local PD, a separate fee for the fingerprinting, a fee for the background check, and then another fee to the state when they issue the permanent (for five years) permit.

[5whiskey]

OP, a quick solution is to put the bag into an area that is not in your lungeable area as you drive. If it is in the trunk, or in the cargo area of an SUV, you will be good almost anywhere. Almost all states have an element of the concealed carry law that requires it to be readily accessible to be unlawful. Putting it out of your reach as you drive removes all doubt of "readily accessible." Even California has shooting ranges, and people can transport their firearms to the shooting range. I'm in NC and case law FOR MY STATE NOT YOURS clearly indicates that unloaded/contained in a hard case with no ammo in the same container is not "concealed" and does not need a permit.

I suspect NE would likely be safe to transport in this manner... but if you really need to know ask an attorney or someone who has been a cop (on the street) there for a good while and has a good reputation.

[HiBC]

I'm not a lawyer,and I'm pulling up a vague memory for the sake of discussion.

DO NOT TAKE THIS AS ADVICE.

Wasn't there a Volkmer Act? Something about a uniform Federal Code for traveling through multiple jurisdictions with a firearm?

IIRC,it was something like
Outside the passenger compartment,such as in the trunk.(At least inaccessible)
Unloaded,
Cased,
Ammo must be stored....locked or in a separate container or???

That's not ,obviously,a quote or clear representation,but am I correct about a "Volkmer Act" and is it in effect?

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by HiBC

I'm not a lawyer,and I'm pulling up a vague memory for the sake of discussion.

DO NOT TAKE THIS AS ADVICE.

Wasn't there a Volkmer Act? Something about a uniform Federal Code for traveling through multiple jurisdictions with a firearm?

IIRC,it was something like
Outside the passenger compartment,such as in the trunk.(At least inaccessible)
Unloaded,
Cased,
Ammo must be stored....locked or in a separate container or???

That's not ,obviously,a quote or clear representation,but am I correct about a "Volkmer Act" and is it in effect?

You're thinking of the Firearms Owners Protective Act (a.k.a. "FOPA"), but that's federal law and it only applies to interstate travel. Federal law has no bearing on what happens within your own home state.

[FITASC]

The guy is going to the range for crying out loud; let's stop overthinking this - ha=e has his unloaded guns in one bag and his ammo in another in the back if the vehicle.

[Aguila Blanca]

I respectfully submit that trying to provide an accurate answer to a specific question is not "overthinking." Have you researched Nebraska law sufficiently to know that what you propose is legal in Nebraska?

It probably is ... but it would NOT be legal in some states, so it's not safe to generalize, or to assume. In fact, your response is even assuming where in the vehicle he has the guns and ammo placed. You wrote "in the back," but he didn't write that. Maybe he has a short-cab pickup truck and the backpack has to go on the passenger side seat or floor ...

Above, you cited Handgunlaw, and they are usually pretty accurate. But in this case, they missed. Handgunlaw says that Lincoln has an ordinance on carrying in a vehicle without a permit. I just read the entire section of the ordinance, and it says nothing about either carry or transport of firearms in a vehicle -- with or without a permit.

Handgunlaw also says that Omaha has an ordinance on carrying in a vehicle without a permit. This time they seem to be correct. The pertinent section from the Omaha ordinance says:

Sec. 20-195. - Possession or transportation of firearms.

(a) It shall be unlawful for any person to knowingly or purposely transport in any conveyance or in any other manner, or to possess off his own premises, any rifle, shotgun, air gun, air rifle, paint ball gun or machine gun unless the same is unloaded and contained in any enclosed gun case, or unloaded and broken down. The removal of the bolt from any such firearm or carrying the same in a holster type gun case without further breaking down such firearm shall not be deemed to be in compliance with the requirements of this section.

(b) The provisions of this section shall not be applicable to:

(1) Authorized law enforcement officers;

(2) The armed forces of the United States, including ROTC units and the National Guard in the performance of their duties;

(3) The carrying of unloaded and uncased rifles in parades or using rifles in ceremonials;

(4) The possession of rifles, machine guns, or shotguns at shows or exhibits; or

(5) Any other lawful use, purpose or activity, including but not limited to skeet and trap shooting, target shooting at rifle ranges, hunter safety instruction conducted by qualified instructors, when such do not endanger public safety or are detrimental to public welfare; provided, however:

a. The prior approval of the police chief shall have been obtained for such use, purpose or activity; and

b. With respect to skeet and trap shooting ranges located or to be located in public parks, the final determination of the safety of the same shall be made by the city council.

(Code 1980, § 20-195; Ord. No. 33113, § 3, 11-23-93; Ord. No. 33757, § 7, 12-19-95; Ord. No. 36361, § 2, 8-19-03)

Based on this, it says transport must be in "any enclosed gun case." A backpack is probably not a gun case. On the other hand, the ordinance specifically prohibits improper transport or possession off the actor's own property of "any rifle, shotgun, air gun, air rifle, paint ball gun or machine gun." I wouldn't knowingly choose to become the test case, but it does NOT mention handguns and, in law, words have meaning.

I understand that it would be nice to have a simple answer to every question, but in the real world that isn't always possible. In Nebraska, it seems that just knowing state law isn't enough, you also have to be aware of the local ordinances of every municipality you'll be driving through. (My state is the same -- no statewide preemption.) I recognize that some people may find this helpful while others may consider it "overthinking." So be it.

[PushPuller]

First and foremost id like to thank you guys for the help!

But I'm thinking Its probably best to call an attorney on this one as stated above. I generally try to keep my firearms in the far back, behind the rear seat in my Jeep Liberty. Although sometimes I am in a single cab pickup. Luckily I have to renew my purchase permit in about a month and will also ask while I'm in the Sherriff's dept. I honestly wouldn't sweat it much if I didn't live in Lincoln and frequent Omaha. Everywhere else in the state is exceptionally gun friendly as long as you have a clean record and aren't actively committing crimes.

[Spats McGee]

Sounds like a good plan. If renewing your permit requires a class, also ask the instructor.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by PushPuller

But I'm thinking Its probably best to call an attorney on this one as stated above. I generally try to keep my firearms in the far back, behind the rear seat in my Jeep Liberty.

I second the decision to consult an attorney. If possible, find an attorney who specializes in firearms law.

As to the Jeep Liberty -- it's an SUV. I know the FOPA is federal law and doesn't apply, but many state laws I've encountered seem to mirror the language. And the FOPA requirement is for the firearm(s) to be in the trunk or, if the vehicle does not have a separate luggage compartment (which an SUV does not), "in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console."

Someone above mentioned that in the back, beyond the driver's reach, is good enough. That's NOT good enough to satisfy the FOPA, so it isn't good enough to satisfy any state or local law that's based on or similar to the FOPA. I'm sorry for harping on this, but with all the gun laws out there it's just NOT something that has a simple answer. There is simply no viable alternative to knowing the actual language of the actual laws in the actual localities of concern. Generalizing is dangerous.

[Colorado Redneck]

This may be useful:
https://www.gunstocarry.com/gun-laws-state/

[DaleA]

I'm sorry for harping on this, but with all the gun laws out there...

IMhO go ahead and hang on. I'm pretty sure almost everyone here has agreed (to one degree or another) to abide by the laws in our area and that means we have to understand them. And some of them are tricky. They should NOT be tricky but it seems some are.

I'd rather sit here in my house and have someone on the forum explain some of the intricacies of the law to me than be sitting cuffed up in the back of a squad car doing it.

[TDL]

gunstocarry is actually very accurate for DC. it thankfully doesn't include the FUD from Lott on his absurd contention on carry being prohibited 1,000 feet from a school, which I have had three separate firearms related criminal law attorneys say Lott is wrong on.

Someone above mentioned that in the back, beyond the driver's reach, is good enough. That's NOT good enough to satisfy the FOPA, so it isn't good enough to satisfy any state or local law that's based on or similar to the FOPA. I'm sorry for harping on this, but with all the gun laws out there it's just NOT something that has a simple answer.

indeed, even beyond code there are readouts/'advisory opinions from states' attorney generals that are not in code, not as good as a uppr court ruling precedent, but usable as part of defense. EG Virginia's attorney generals readouts on what secured means and whether glove compartment needs to be locked for a gun to be "secured" with AG published opinion that it did not being reinforced by a court opinion But in a different state the same code language could be held to mean locked.

[Aguila Blanca]

I wasn't going to prolong this any more, but I will throw out one more example of how seemingly tiny things can make a huge difference:

The federal FOPA says if your car doesn't have a separate trunk, "... the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console." A number of states repeat that more or less verbatim in their state laws -- in regard to people traveling through, not necessarily addressing transport within the state.

I mention this because, a few years ago, I made a road trip that took me up the New Jersey Turnpike. NJ is pretty scary regarding possession of firearms, but it turns out they do (on paper, at least) respect the FOPA. With an important caveat -- where the FOPA says "or," NJ says "and." So their version, as it appeared on the NJ State Police web site as recently as about three months ago, says:

"... the firearm and ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console."

They only changed one little word, but that one word could get someone arrested, and convicted. Say you drive an SUV. You dutifully read the FOPA, you lock your MasterBlaster X237 in a fancy case made for guns (unloaded, of course), close the combination lock, add a padlock for extra measure ... and you throw a dozen boxes of HydraShok ammo in a canvas tool bag and off you go. Under the FOPA, you're good all the way from Florida up through Delaware. Then you hit NJ and you get stopped on the NJ Turnpike. Officer Friendly asks if you have any weapons in the vehicle, and you 'fess up. He looks, he sees a tool bag full of ammo -- unlocked -- and out come the handcuffs.

The devil is in the details.



Yes, I know the FOPA is an affirmative defense, and you may avoid a conviction. But it may cost you time and money. As the saying goes, "You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride."