|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
May 22, 2010, 02:55 AM | #1 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 10, 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 2,774
|
Does designing a bad shooting range on your property constitue criminal negligence?
Have many folks here set up their own improvised shooting ranges on their own property? If so, you may want to read about this accidental shooting. For if one does not do an adequate job of addressing safety issues, one can then get into serious legal trouble if an accident should take place.
Recently, there was a trial in Vermont over an accidental shooting, where a man had set up a target range in his own backyard. In the course of simply target shooting, a round from a 30 caliber centerfire rifle traveled to his neighbor's house, penetrated the home, and killed his neighbor, John Reiss, while he was sitting down in the dining room eating his dinner. The gun owner, 40-year-old Joe McCarthy, was a popular and well respected professor at nearby St. Michael’s College. He had never been charged with any sort of crime in his entire life. A total of 4 men shot hi-powered rifles on the improvised range that day. Prosecutors are actually not sure who fired the deadly bullet that killed Reiss. Of the 4 men, 3 fired semi-auto rifles that had been modified to shoot multiple bullets with the pull of a trigger. Forensics proved that the bullet was from a caliber 7.62x39mm Russian round fired from an SKS carbine. Because Joe McCarthy owned the land and had created the range, prosecutors felt that he was the person most directly responsible for the accident happening. This was thus an issue of a stray bullet inadvertently striking someone. Prosecutors argued that the design of the range was inadequate for safety, and that McCarthy was thus reckless to shoot on this range he created. Jurors were taken to the range, and shown the layout of the land. The Reiss home was approximately 250 yards from the shooting bench that the rifles were fired from. Prosecutors claimed that just using old tree stumps for the backstop behind the target was seriously flawed. Would you agree with that point, regarding what constitutes a safe and responsible shooting range? In his summation, Prosecutor Justin Jiron told the jurors that someone sitting down to eat dinner shouldn’t have to worry that they’ll be shot dead from out of nowhere. Do you think that involuntary manslaughter was the appropriate sentence? The key point of law was whether McCarthy was criminally negligent or not. If no negligence had been committed, he could have got off, or at least have received a lesser charge. This is an issue to definitely take into very serious consideration, for anyone who designs and builds their own shooting range. What is downrange? What if there is a ricochet? How close are your neighbors? What would be the key safety issues that you would address, in setting up a range on your own property? Vermont law gives this judge quite a bit of discretion when it comes to the sentence, which can be as little as one year in state prison, or up to a max of 15 years. What do you think an appropriate prison sentence should be in a situation like this one? How much of a factor should the defendant's lack of any criminal record be? What about the fact that Joe McCarthy may not have even fired the lethal shot? Should the judge consider that point as well, in your opinion, in determining an appropriate sentence? How damning are the issues that the only backstop behind the targets was a tree stump, and that FMJ ammo was being used? Here below are some links to news stories about this tragedy for further background. Was is your take on all of the above issues? How many years should McCarthy stay in prison? See: http://www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?S=12521256 http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/a...shooting-range . Last edited by LanceOregon; May 22, 2010 at 03:24 AM. |
May 22, 2010, 03:41 AM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 14, 2004
Location: NY State
Posts: 6,575
|
He was certainly negligent ! As it was his property he was responsible .His shooting "range" was in no way safe.Five year sentence perhaps. BTW in these cases the landowner can face huge civil court lawsuits too ! Stupid and irresponsible !
|
May 22, 2010, 04:11 AM | #3 | |
Junior member
Join Date: May 10, 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 2,774
|
Quote:
Although I think that a devote person could perhaps forgive him, and decide to not punish his wife and children more by suing them. It is not like McCarthy is that bad of a person. He just seems to have lacked good judgment and common sense. And that then led to tragedy. His attorney says that he plans to appeal the conviction, and get it overturned. No mention was made in the news stories I read, though, regarding what possible grounds he felt he had to base an appeal on. . |
|
May 22, 2010, 08:00 AM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 17, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,066
|
The sentencing length gives no benefit for John Reiss or his family so I have no opinion of what that should be. However, punishment is not for those who have done wrong but is for an example to those who have not yet done so.
My understanding of the right to appeal is there has to have been a flaw in the trial, unless it’s a death sentence, and one cannot appeal merely because they don’t agree with the verdict. This depicts something of which we should all be aware. Even with a suitable backstop an errant round by negligent discharge or accidental discharge can go astray. A problem with letting friends shoot on your own land is that you cannot really control what they do. You can come down hard on your kids or grandkids with safety rules but asserting authority over other adults does not always work. The news article indicates it was a friend’s rifle which fired the fatal shot and it could have been the friend who fired it. Perhaps it’s best to not be a nice guy and provide a range for friends. |
May 22, 2010, 10:19 AM | #5 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,717
|
Quote:
LOL, if the range worked for 90 minutes without complaints, then it must be safe!!! Quote:
With that in mind, the description of McCarthy's range absolutely sounds like he was negligent. http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/a...ng-trial-opens Quote:
So were there any charges made based on the converted Class III rifles? Quote:
Going back to the thread title's query, Quote:
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange |
|||||
May 22, 2010, 10:35 AM | #6 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 29, 2004
Posts: 3,351
|
Quote:
It takes a very large expanse of trees to be 100% sure no bullets will make it through (think miles). I shoot at an IWLA range that has huge berms dug into the side of a hill and multiple gravel loaded baffles above the firing line placed out to 25 yards to make sure you cannot even see the top of the berm and fire over it from the firing line. Prone shooters are the biggest risk (they could fire over the berm) and they are watched VERY carefully. |
|
May 23, 2010, 06:14 PM | #7 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 11,061
|
It depends.
If something on my range cause the accident, its my fault, if some dummy shoots himself in the butt practicing quick draw its his fault. Simple solution, if your worried about it, dont let anyone else shoot on your property. I'm a real hard butt when it comes to safety, some one doesnt like it they can shoot elsewhere. The people I really dont mine shooting on my property with have pretty much the same attitude and we have no problem.
__________________
Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071 |
May 24, 2010, 12:23 AM | #8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 16, 2010
Location: If you have to ask...
Posts: 2,860
|
Many years, maybe even decades ago, someone told me that once I'd pulled the trigger and discharged a firearm I was responsible for that bullet until it came to rest. I spent a bit of time with that concept and I've never forgotten it. I think as landowner and responsible party for the range he is indeed negligent and should be held to the same standard. His guests may not have known about the house downrange but he did. Is he a criminal? Maybe not. But he is the person who had the best chance of avoiding this tragedy and he didn't. That's a shame.
Commercial ranges almost always carry liability insuarance and it isn't cheap. They also have to spend large stacks of money on improvements to keep bullets on the property. Some day I hope to have a property suitable for setting up a private range. I'll be thinking about this case when I make the needed improvements.
__________________
Life Member NRA, TSRA Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call Lonesome Dove My favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights. |
May 24, 2010, 07:08 AM | #9 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Location: South Western OK
Posts: 3,112
|
Quote:
Bingo!!! Too many folks who are not familiar with the construction of safe firing ranges cobble up an unsafe range and then wonder why incidents like this one happen. |
|
May 24, 2010, 07:39 AM | #10 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 3,073
|
Quote:
__________________
Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers) Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE |
|
May 24, 2010, 08:21 AM | #11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 20, 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 175
|
I would never build a range on my personal property without an aerial overview of the next 4 miles around it. Something easily pulled off of GoogleEarth. And then, I would build a lane of fire that didn't have anything behind it for at least that far, if not further, and up to 45° from either side of the end of it. It's just too easy to hire in machinery to make a simple, single lane firing point with a berm around the end of it. May not be exactly inexpensive, but the cost wouldn't be prohibitive either and I would save my money to have it done the same as I save my money to buy anything I can't outright afford to do.
The landowner and all those who fired should be held responsible in my opinion. I've been invited to fire handguns and rifles on people's properties before. Before doing so, I always check into their idea of a firing line. To not do so is simply negligent ignorance on your part. I know what bullets do to people. And having an accident that involves some one getting killed in this type situation can be avoided too easily. |
May 24, 2010, 01:23 PM | #12 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,717
|
Quote:
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange |
|
May 24, 2010, 01:43 PM | #13 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 26, 2005
Location: The Bluegrass
Posts: 9,142
|
The shooter is definitely negligent, IMO. The tougher question is whether this should be a criminal offense. In most states, this requires something more than ordinary negligence, either gross negligence or reckless behavior. Since he knew the house was there within short range, I would say it is reckless to discharge rifles in that direction depending only on some trees as a back stop. I learned at an early age that one needed a hill or something similar as a backstop. Hills were pretty easy to come by growing up in Southeastern Kentucky.
|
May 24, 2010, 02:36 PM | #14 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 12, 2010
Location: Georgia
Posts: 556
|
1. They were shooting weapons that were converted to select fire.
2. It's only 250 yards from the bench to the neighbors house... how could you be shooting any rifle round and think that inside of 1000 yards is safe? Let alone only 250 yards with only tree stumps as a back stop. Thats the part that bothers me. 3. I didn't see that it said it was his next door neighbor's house, so I'm assuming that it was the guy who lived behind him, which means that they were pointing their weapons in that house's direction! Know your target and what lays beyond it. Pure stupidity in my opinion. Personal Info: is a 7.62x39 and a 30 cal round the same round?
__________________
Quote:
|
|
May 24, 2010, 03:50 PM | #15 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,717
|
Quote:
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange |
|
May 24, 2010, 11:54 PM | #16 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 23, 2009
Posts: 3,963
|
As a surveyor, I regularly use a laser distance meter to measure distances in the woods. It's not difficult to work in a dense stand of timber, with visibility seeming to be 100 feet, and find that small gap between trees for a 400 or 800 foot measurement. You shoot a rifle into the woods, there is absolutely no guarantee it will hit a tree and stop it's travel within the distance you think is safe.
Put some bright orange jackets on sticks where you intend to shoot from, then go walk around downrange as far as you think you should, then look back, you'll see orange between the trees often enough. Leaves and twigs don't stop rifle bullets, nor do small tree trunks. |
May 25, 2010, 12:23 AM | #17 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: February 12, 2010
Location: Georgia
Posts: 556
|
Quote:
__________________
Quote:
|
||
May 25, 2010, 12:33 AM | #18 |
Staff
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 24,972
|
I've stopped very intelligent and responsible people from discharging firearms in situations where there were houses nearby (and downrange) and there was nothing other than trees to act as a backstop.
Trees are NOT a backstop. Thick trees are not a backstop. Even if the number and density of the trees are such that there is absolutely no way a bullet could penetrate through them to hit something directly downrange, they are STILL not a backstop because they do not reliably absorb bullet strikes like a proper backstop/berm will. A bullet striking the edge of a tree trunk can ricochet at a surprisingly sharp angle. A bullet striking a tree limb can be deflected upward enough to travel over the trees and hit something downrange. It is safe to use trees as a backstop ONLY when there is no one in front of you (forward of the firing line) for as long as your bullet could possibly travel. We're talking about MILES of safety zone required. In other words, it's only safe to use trees as a backstop if it's safe to shoot without a backstop.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
|
|
|