The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: General

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old February 2, 2019, 09:19 PM   #1
clockwork65
Member
 
Join Date: January 21, 2019
Posts: 32
copper on barrel wear?

Years ago I recall guys talking about how mono copper bullets fouled barrels much quicker than bonded, etc. I'm assuming, given the current popularity of monos, that this is no longer the case due to new tech/design?
clockwork65 is offline  
Old February 2, 2019, 10:41 PM   #2
jmr40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 9,387
I doubt if that were ever a real problem. All standard bullets have copper jackets. The barrel doesn't know if it is a copper jacket or solid copper. As near as I can tell some rifle barrels foul with copper more easily, but I don't see the bullet as the cause.
__________________
"If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong"

Winston Churchill
jmr40 is offline  
Old February 3, 2019, 06:28 AM   #3
std7mag
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 23, 2013
Location: Central Pennsyltucky...
Posts: 2,228
It's got to shoot paterns instead of groups for me to clean the copper out of my barrel.
Carbon is a different story.

There are several myths from the bad ole days that people are finding out now were unjustified.
__________________
I am in earnest- I will not equivocate- I will not excuse-
I will not retreat a single inch- AND I WILL BE HEARD!
William Lloyd Garrison - The Liberator 1831
std7mag is offline  
Old February 3, 2019, 07:48 AM   #4
Mobuck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2010
Posts: 6,590
Early "copper" bullets were quite soft and tended to smear off in even moderately rough bores. Then the "copper" was made harder to lessen this problem inciting some to claim excessive bore wear. Considering that most "copper" bullets were designed primarily for big game hunting(at that time), it would be surprising if most shooters fired enough of the "harder" copper bullets to make any diff. Early "copper" bullets also tended to raise chamber pressures requiring load adjustments(and some "monolith" bullets still do).
I suspect that a lot of the copper we find left in rifle barrels is on the trailing edge of the lands and really has little to do with overall accuracy until a truly significant amount has built up.
Mobuck is offline  
Old February 5, 2019, 01:59 AM   #5
Scorch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2006
Location: Washington state
Posts: 13,521
Quote:
All standard bullets have copper jackets.
Not really. Most have jackets made of "gilding metal" a copper alloy similar to brass, which is 95% copper and 5% zinc. Gilding metal fouls much less than copper.

Pure copper was responsible for the early Barnes bullets fouling barrels so much 20 years ago. Some of the fouling issues were alleviated by adding grooves to the bullets to reduce surface area of the bullet in contact with the bore, and reduced even further by using gilding metal in some other bullets. I don't know if any company uses straight copper any more.
__________________
Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs.
But what do I know?
Summit Arms Services
Taylor Machine
Scorch is offline  
Old February 7, 2019, 10:04 PM   #6
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 4,323
Quote:
I doubt if that were ever a real problem. All standard bullets have copper jackets. The barrel doesn't know if it is a copper jacket or solid copper. As near as I can tell some rifle barrels foul with copper more easily, but I don't see the bullet as the cause.
The alloys of TSX and jackets are different, but I think what causes the notable fouling is the higher velocity of the solid bullets, Tsx, Ttsx, Gmx, etc. Most move way down in weight when they go to a Tsx. With that weight drop comes velocity and more fouling.
reynolds357 is offline  
Old February 10, 2019, 10:04 PM   #7
Red Devil
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2010
Posts: 120
Harder Materials - will cut (wear) softer materials.

Barrel Steel - is considerably harder than copper or gilding metal.


What erodes bores is Ablation - the hot gasses vaporizing the surface of the hot/soft barrel steel, usually at a 3:1 throat/muzzle ratio.

The hotter/softer the steel - the more rapid the erosion.




Red
Red Devil is offline  
Old February 11, 2019, 12:41 PM   #8
Art Eatman
Staff Lead
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA
Posts: 24,714
Ablation occurs at the throat, but since accuracy degrades with that, barrels are replaced long before any ablation occurs "downstream" from the throat.

Shooting is lapping, just in normal usage. Whether lead or gilding metal, the bore gets polished.
__________________
You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!
Art Eatman is offline  
Old February 11, 2019, 12:49 PM   #9
LineStretcher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 14, 2018
Posts: 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Eatman View Post
Ablation occurs at the throat, but since accuracy degrades with that, barrels are replaced long before any ablation occurs "downstream" from the throat.

Shooting is lapping, just in normal usage. Whether lead or gilding metal, the bore gets polished.
Perfect Art. A new barrel will foul more until it's groves (not lands) are sweetened. That's a little old school term for the somewhat inaccurate term of today "broken in".
LineStretcher is offline  
Old February 11, 2019, 08:49 PM   #10
Red Devil
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2010
Posts: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Eatman View Post
Ablation occurs at the throat, but since accuracy degrades with that, barrels are replaced long before any ablation occurs "downstream" from the throat.

Shooting is lapping, just in normal usage. Whether lead or gilding metal, the bore gets polished.
As stated - ablation also occurs at the muzzle, at roughly a 1/3 rate of the throat.




Red
Red Devil is offline  
Old February 12, 2019, 07:35 AM   #11
stillquietvoice
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2015
Location: UPSTATE NY
Posts: 177
Sometimes it is the bullet. When I got my rem 700 in 7-08 I fired factory rounds from hornandy, privy, federal and Winchester then reloaded several different manufacturers bullets in 139-140 gr. Weight with no issues. Bought rem 140 corelockt and after only 15 rounds my bore looked like a copper mine, it took a week to clan it out. I've never shot them again and have not had an issue like that since
__________________
actions speak louder than words
flatter tragectories quicker results.
stillquietvoice is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:54 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.05870 seconds with 10 queries