Shotgun Loads: #1 vs #00 Buck - Page 2

buzz riley · February 26, 1999, 02:14 PM

Harry,
Thanks for the input, you are well versed on the subject. We switched from the Federal Tactical 9 pellet OOB to the Federal 12 pellet 2 3/4 OOB. We did it to increase the the projectiles and the pattern size. It,s sad-but true fact, that most LEO's aren't the best shots(why do I feel like that came as no suprise to you). With the stress induced by a critical incident, they/we still miss BG's at close ranges(not just close, but real close). So we went to hi-cap mags so we can "miss" more at arms length, and the 12 pellet buck to increase hit probability in the situations where the shotgun is used most (traffic stop distances-out to thirty yards or so). Of course thirty yards is way above the "average" range for most LEO shootings. We keep slugs in the side-saddle ammo holders, but most officers do well to hit a target at 50 yards to qualify(without someone shooting back at them). I know training is the answer, and apologize if it sounds like I'm "throwing in the towel". We spend as much time down-range as most departments(and no-I don't approve the overtime for more live fire practice). I'm just trying to be realistic about actual incidents, and increase officer survivability if I can. I appreciate your time, and your concern. Please don't think I'm being critical, I'm interested in any info that may help us. Let me know what you think.

------------------
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. Matthew 5:9

Jeff Thomas · February 27, 1999, 11:31 PM

buzz and Harry, as a civilian in a 'home defense' situation, it is helpful to learn from you. Thank you.

buzz, thank you for your service. Your observations about hi-cap mag's for LEO's in high stress situations are the reason we civilians have the same desire. It's too bad our legislators don't give a damn.

Here's a burning question I've always had about LEO's - since their lives potentially depend upon their shooting skills, why do they even need to be paid for firearms training? If they don't get enough on company time, why don't they take personal time to meet these goals? I'm not trying to be cute here, or be a smart a** - I'm honestly confused by this.

When I get my shotgun back from Hans Vang I plan to pattern with a few of these loads. Thanks.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited February 27, 1999).]

Harry Humphries · February 28, 1999, 11:05 AM

Hey Buzz, Jeff, et.al.

For Buz,

My life has been dedicated to teaching that which is practical with respect to combat survival, especially in the LE community, I too share your interest in making sure the good guys are informed.

Your choice of 12 shot mag is perfectly correct if you or your agency has focused on the scatter gun aspect of the shot gun. Most agencies, however, are plagued with the dreadful aspects of collateral damage, law suits, etc. therefore a compromise thinking of maximum shoulder fire capability, with reasonable shot control if the inadvertent 25 yd shot must be taken in an urban environment. It is a fine point- for sure. Stay safe.

By the way, I was advising on the script of "The Peace Makers" when I recommended the title - guess where I came up with it.

For Jeff,

Stay tuned you are on one heck of a good site if it is professional opinions you are seeking.

Many officers do pay for their own training and equipment, where allowed. The problem with weapon skills, however, is that they are highly perishable and must be maintained regularly. An agency sponsored training program:
• assures control of the skills being taught so all players are on the same sheet of music, if you will.
• assures recalcitrant officers stay up to speed, much to the pleasure of the guys in the cars with them.
• is the moral obligation of those that send men and women into harms way.

HH

buzz riley · March 1, 1999, 08:03 AM

Harry'
Thanks again for the information, I'm sure I will be calling on your experience again.
Jeff,
Our feelings are the same when it comes to equipment for law abiding civilians(LEO's have homes/families to protect as well).
In an attempt to answer your question about LEO's training on their own time. Some do, God bless them. Harry gave you one of the best reasons why it's not encouraged more, the training is not uniform. I've seen a few officers using methods(even Hollywood style) that were improper after plinking with their friends. Remember the old saying: "Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect"(Obviously there was only one perfect peacemaker, but you get my jest).
Now for the cold reality: most officers carry a weapon because it's issued to them. They don't look at it much different than a carpenter looks at a hammer. I don't agree when we're talking about deadly force, but most officers truely feel like it will never happen to them(and they have statistics that back them up). Stay safe.

Jeff Thomas · March 2, 1999, 01:33 AM

Harry, buzz, thank you. I'm glad many LEO's appreciate that civilians want to be able to defend themselves and their families. I wish more of those LEO's would feel comfortable joining groups like LEAA so that the anti-self defense people would lose their argument that LEO's are for greater gun control.

And, regarding statistics, I've always enjoyed my wife's approach - 'the statistics don't matter - when your number's up, your number's up'.

therealdeal · October 4, 2010, 06:33 AM

I prefer the 3" 00buck 15pellets in my mossberg500. I always buy the federal or winchester. Our boss has always taught us that shotguns like it rough, so I don't mind the extra kick either.

Tamara · October 4, 2010, 06:57 AM

You do realize that the thread to which you just posted is over eleven years old?

pax · October 4, 2010, 08:12 AM

Cool blast from the past, but -- well, if you want to discuss this topic, perhaps it would be a good idea to start a fresh thread in the shotguns forum. Lots of changes to the board over the past 11 years!

pax

October 4, 2010, 06:33 AM	#31
therealdeal Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2010 Posts: 627	I prefer the 3" 00buck 15pellets in my mossberg500. I always buy the federal or winchester. Our boss has always taught us that shotguns like it rough, so I don't mind the extra kick either. __________________ NRA Distinguished Life Member "Abraham Lincoln freed all men, but Sam Colt made them all equal." (post Civil War slogan)

October 4, 2010, 06:57 AM	#32
Tamara Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 11, 2000 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 16,002	therealdeal, You do realize that the thread to which you just posted is over eleven years old? __________________ MOLON LABE! 2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium. The Arms Room: An Online Museum.

October 4, 2010, 08:12 AM	#33
pax Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: In a state of flux Posts: 7,520	Cool blast from the past, but -- well, if you want to discuss this topic, perhaps it would be a good idea to start a fresh thread in the shotguns forum. Lots of changes to the board over the past 11 years! pax __________________ Kathy Jackson My personal website: Cornered Cat

February 26, 1999, 02:14 PM	#26
buzz riley Member Join Date: January 27, 1999 Location: KY Posts: 47	Harry, Thanks for the input, you are well versed on the subject. We switched from the Federal Tactical 9 pellet OOB to the Federal 12 pellet 2 3/4 OOB. We did it to increase the the projectiles and the pattern size. It,s sad-but true fact, that most LEO's aren't the best shots(why do I feel like that came as no suprise to you). With the stress induced by a critical incident, they/we still miss BG's at close ranges(not just close, but real close). So we went to hi-cap mags so we can "miss" more at arms length, and the 12 pellet buck to increase hit probability in the situations where the shotgun is used most (traffic stop distances-out to thirty yards or so). Of course thirty yards is way above the "average" range for most LEO shootings. We keep slugs in the side-saddle ammo holders, but most officers do well to hit a target at 50 yards to qualify(without someone shooting back at them). I know training is the answer, and apologize if it sounds like I'm "throwing in the towel". We spend as much time down-range as most departments(and no-I don't approve the overtime for more live fire practice). I'm just trying to be realistic about actual incidents, and increase officer survivability if I can. I appreciate your time, and your concern. Please don't think I'm being critical, I'm interested in any info that may help us. Let me know what you think. ------------------ Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. Matthew 5:9

February 27, 1999, 11:31 PM	#27
Jeff Thomas Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1998 Location: Texas Posts: 4,753	buzz and Harry, as a civilian in a 'home defense' situation, it is helpful to learn from you. Thank you. buzz, thank you for your service. Your observations about hi-cap mag's for LEO's in high stress situations are the reason we civilians have the same desire. It's too bad our legislators don't give a damn. Here's a burning question I've always had about LEO's - since their lives potentially depend upon their shooting skills, why do they even need to be paid for firearms training? If they don't get enough on company time, why don't they take personal time to meet these goals? I'm not trying to be cute here, or be a smart a** - I'm honestly confused by this. When I get my shotgun back from Hans Vang I plan to pattern with a few of these loads. Thanks. [This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited February 27, 1999).]

February 28, 1999, 11:05 AM	#28
Harry Humphries Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 13, 1998 Location: Huntington Beach, CA, USA Posts: 59	Hey Buzz, Jeff, et.al. For Buz, My life has been dedicated to teaching that which is practical with respect to combat survival, especially in the LE community, I too share your interest in making sure the good guys are informed. Your choice of 12 shot mag is perfectly correct if you or your agency has focused on the scatter gun aspect of the shot gun. Most agencies, however, are plagued with the dreadful aspects of collateral damage, law suits, etc. therefore a compromise thinking of maximum shoulder fire capability, with reasonable shot control if the inadvertent 25 yd shot must be taken in an urban environment. It is a fine point- for sure. Stay safe. By the way, I was advising on the script of "The Peace Makers" when I recommended the title - guess where I came up with it. For Jeff, Stay tuned you are on one heck of a good site if it is professional opinions you are seeking. Many officers do pay for their own training and equipment, where allowed. The problem with weapon skills, however, is that they are highly perishable and must be maintained regularly. An agency sponsored training program: • assures control of the skills being taught so all players are on the same sheet of music, if you will. • assures recalcitrant officers stay up to speed, much to the pleasure of the guys in the cars with them. • is the moral obligation of those that send men and women into harms way. HH

March 1, 1999, 08:03 AM	#29
buzz riley Member Join Date: January 27, 1999 Location: KY Posts: 47	Harry' Thanks again for the information, I'm sure I will be calling on your experience again. Jeff, Our feelings are the same when it comes to equipment for law abiding civilians(LEO's have homes/families to protect as well). In an attempt to answer your question about LEO's training on their own time. Some do, God bless them. Harry gave you one of the best reasons why it's not encouraged more, the training is not uniform. I've seen a few officers using methods(even Hollywood style) that were improper after plinking with their friends. Remember the old saying: "Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect"(Obviously there was only one perfect peacemaker, but you get my jest). Now for the cold reality: most officers carry a weapon because it's issued to them. They don't look at it much different than a carpenter looks at a hammer. I don't agree when we're talking about deadly force, but most officers truely feel like it will never happen to them(and they have statistics that back them up). Stay safe.

March 2, 1999, 01:33 AM	#30
Jeff Thomas Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1998 Location: Texas Posts: 4,753	Harry, buzz, thank you. I'm glad many LEO's appreciate that civilians want to be able to defend themselves and their families. I wish more of those LEO's would feel comfortable joining groups like LEAA so that the anti-self defense people would lose their argument that LEO's are for greater gun control. And, regarding statistics, I've always enjoyed my wife's approach - 'the statistics don't matter - when your number's up, your number's up'.