Fight Night!!! Round 1 AR vs AK

[Ignition Override]

Jsmaye's early comments about what a rifle is used for, were as funny as reading the Internet page which compares the AR, AK and Mosin Nagant 91/30.
If I could someday justify another plinking gun, it might be a typical AK or Saiga, due to dependability, cost etc.

Being unable to remove the SKS receiver cover (with small lever pulled back and outward), even when watching the SKS video on Youtube, proves that some people only need simple guns.

I know one thing. If a certain politician is elected (or not) and gets "hurt" by somebody, on that day and the next, it might be very prudent to drive into any fairly large city only with a dependable carbine 'available' (and able to be quickly loaded)...
If you had to drive around in an unstable part of town, being already aware of possible problems (unlike Reginald Denny in LA), would you take something simple or a good bit more complex?
Would the gun's country of origin be a factor? I wonder how many people might second-guess their stated preference.

[GetYerShells]

Took the standard issue M-4 with me to Afghanistan. Spent more than 14 hours outdoors everyday. I kept the dust cover closed. It endured sand in the barrel, wind, and dust that penetrates everything. Even used it to prop myself up against from time to time. Never failed to fire when I needed it. Gave it a moderate once a week cleaning with CLP and never had a problem with it.

"Unreliability" is a term I tend to associate with people who do not know how to care for or clean their firearms. Granted, some guns are more tempermental than others but I find that about 80-90% of all field malfunctions/jams are because of poor maintenance on the user end, or the operator not knowing their weapon.

I give my vote to the AR from a stand point of incompetent operators that are too lazy to take care of their equipment. AK is reliable...so is the AR. AR=more accuracy, longer range, 5.56=higher velocity round, more customizable.

[Jermtheory]

AR for...

ergonomics
customization
accuracy
"shootability"
aethetics


the AK may be less maintenance intensive,but i feel that is greatly exaggerated...the AK isnt unstoppable and the AR is far more reliable than it gets credit for(a good one anyway).

the AK is a club,the AR is a Katana.

AR without a second thought. My AK's are for unprepared friends to borrow if the ca ca ever hits the fan. They can get the job done without a doubt but they can't hang with my AR's.

man with the plan.

[armedtotheteeth]

i like the club and katana resemblance
I am relativley new to Ars and i cant spell worth a poop
I have found that my ar is basically a surgions scalpel.
Last weekend, a herd ( Ok a sounder as it is officially called) of pigs had the unfortunate pleasure of meeting me and my ar15 . I dropped 4 of the 9 in their tracks, using only a laser, at a range of 50 yards. I dropped another, offhand, at a range of about 300 yards. I hit the same pig 3 times, thinking it was different ones. I was using Hornday 55 GN Vmaxs. Needless to say, that hog was hamburger meat. it wasnt even worth cleaning.
the really cool thing was my sister, a tree huggin hippie from Colorado, was in the pickup with me witnessing the carnage. Her words where. "wow, the democrats said those have no hunting purpose but you kinda FU$% those pigs up. " I further insulted her by asking her, not only to carry the rifle back to the truck, but, drag a pig or 2 with her.
Aks, will never ever have that kinda of accuracy or control. they kick more, and they shoot in the general direction of the muzzle. If i had to shoot a bunch of bad guys, one of the first rifles i would grab would be my AR-15, the first would be my Ar-30 though.

[crashm1]

If I have to pick one my vote is for the AR. I prefer accurate rifles plus I am already familiar with the manual of arms courtesy of my uncle Sam.

[Wyo Big Bore]

I don't buy that argument either, I played with the AK in SE asia and taught the AK when I was an Weapons Sgt of an SF Company. I didnt see the AK to be that much more reliable then the AR.

That's an interesting comment. I'll repeat the most interesting part.

I didnt see the AK to be that much more reliable then the AR.

[SR420]

For now I'll stay with my accurate and reliable 7.62 X 39 AK ~ the availability of .223 at a greatly
reduced price would have me looking at the AR once again because it is a fun little gun to shoot.

[jsmaye]

I've just realized that I've been following this topic thinking of a brand-new-out-of-the-box-festooned-with-baubles-and-trinkets AR vs. an 40-year-old shot-out-imported-via-Kenyan-goat-herder-via-Afghans-fighting-Russians-via-Russians-fighting-Afghans-by-way-of-Southeast Asia AK.

Honestly, how far off is a mint-condition fully-loaded AK really from an AR?

[ChicagoTex]

Honestly, how far off is a mint-condition fully-loaded AK really from an AR?

Still a long ways off.

Gun age isn't the issue here, design is.

[armedtotheteeth]

Ever notice how awkward ( and LOUD) the AK safety is??
If you reload, AKS will need alot of masaging to keep from destroying brass, (If you can find it, that is).
Most Ar's will pile up the brass about 10 feet to the side and at about the 4-5 oclock position, and undamaged at that.

[dannyb]

I'll second ArmedTT's observation on ARs. When sighting in my AR, I put the milk carton basket that I use for my Frankenstein shooting cart about 5 O'Clock and 6 feet behind me, and about 80% of my fired brass is neatly waiting for me when I police the area after I'm done. Finding most of my brass in a neat pile amazed me the first time I fired my AR. OTOH, I punch unreloadable Wolf and Silver Bear crapola through my AK and scramble all over the place to collect the empties and throw them away. All this means is that they are two different guns with different characteristics. I hit the target with both, both are dependable. One is refined, the other is not. I like them both.

[IZZY]

AK all the WAY!

it fits my frame better, the "ergonomics" are BETTER if your in the field (think gloves and safety lever size)....

You can get 3+ decent (Romanian) AK's for one EXCELLENT AR (COLT).

7.62 X 39 Ammo is cheaper...( it should not be, but it IS)

The IRON sights work better for ME ....YMMMV. (this is an individual choice)

A peasent gun that is a pleasure to shoot!

[jsmaye]

Honestly, how far off is a mint-condition fully-loaded AK really from an AR?

Still a long ways off. Gun age isn't the issue here, design is.

So, even a new Saiga doesn't compete with an AR?

[Blackthunder]

Initial AR's has some problems, the current generation has verry few reliability issues. I think that if AR's did not have the western image and were cheaper, even the Russians would have used them……... If AR's where that unreliable they would not have been in service for 50 years now, and would not have not have been the preferred weapon in Afghanistan. I think that the whole gas piston thing is way over rated, AR’s are capable firing 100’s of rounds full auto with no problems at all.

[ChicagoTex]

So, even a new Saiga doesn't compete with an AR?

Depends on how you define "compete". As far as I can tell, Saigas are amongst the most accurate sub $900 AKs out there and are, at least in some cases, competetive accuracy-wise with most ARs.
However...
Saigas must be converted to "military-style" configuration (an expensive and time-consuming process) in order to use >10 round magazines and they still use the AK's awkward safety, pathetic sights, and slow "rock-and-lock" magazines.

If somehow Saiga were able to legally sell true AK variants here in the states, there's a decent chance I'd buy one - but I'd never consider it superior to an AR.

[jsmaye]

As far as I can tell, Saigas are amongst the most accurate sub $900 AKs out there

Are there $1,000 AK's?

[ChicagoTex]

Are there $1,000 AK's?

Yes, yes there are.

[SR420]

jsmaye

Are there $1,000 AK's?

ChicagoTex

Yes, yes there are.

+2

I just sold a NIB pre-ban Norinco for $1600.00

The funny thing is that I may use the funds to purchase a Colt LE 6933

[vox rationis]

Here's a great video comparing the M16 vs the AK47:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqGxwpOBNrc (part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uzhmu...eature=related (part 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK2aP...eature=related (part 3)

The slow motion videos of the two guns firing are especially interesting!

[Uncleguntrumpet]

I like the Ak, and all piston gas operated rifles like the Garand, M14, M1 Carbine, Ruger Mini 14. I don't like the gas system on the regular AR rifles.
The gas tube blows all of that dirty carbon gas into and inside the receiver.
The only AR that has a gas piston is the Armalite AR 180-B.

[RockyMtnTactical]

The reliability issues with the AR15 and AK are usually greatly exaggerated (as is the lack of accuracy with the AK). It has become so greatly exaggerated by some that many people on the internet give the AK mythical reliability... and the AR15 abysmal reliability.

For instance, people will say that the AR15 has to be cleaned every 1000 rounds or so, otherwise you will suffer reliability issues, or that if you get a little bit of sand/dirt in the action you will be out of the fight (not true, just lube it up and keep shooting)... The one that bugs me the most is the "carbon build up". It is simply not an issue with proper lubrication.

The AR15 requires some small degree of maintenance, but it is easy in my experience to maintain. I've seen people with AR15's who for whatever reason cannot keep the gun running. Most of the time, it is a simple and easy maintenance issue that was holding them back.

Also, don't believe when people say that you have to spend 30 minutes cleaning an AR15. I have never spent near that amount of time cleaning ANY of my firearms, including AR15's. Usual cleaning time is much closer to 10 minutes for me (about the same amount of time it takes me to clean ANY of my other firearms).

Some honestly believe that you can leave your AK buried in the mud for 10 years, drive over it with an 18-wheeler, pick it up, run 10K rounds through it without a hitch and then place it back into safe storage in the mud for another 10 years without worrying about it's condition deteriorating one bit...

This is simply foolishness. Anyone who treated an AK like that would be extremely displeased with the results (especially if they were expecting it to run well).

In a similar way, people will play on things such as accuracy with the AK, claiming that it could not hit the broad side of a barn. In reality, most AK's (especially decent quality AK's with good ammo, not Wolf FMJ) are more than accurate enough for the job. That is to say, they can hit man sized targets out to 300 yards (in 7.62x39)

The truth is much closer to the middle in both cases. It's obvious that both platforms are very well proven and can be used to great results in the hands of a skilled individual.

It is one of the tiring things about the internet. Lots of misinformation and exaggeration. What's worse is, it is most often spread by people with little to no experience with that platform that spread the misinformation about it... It's an endless battle to spread the truth about firearms. I guess reality does little to grab people's attention most of the time though. It is typically the honest opinions of some who are misunderstood from where these misconceptions come from.

Choose the one that works best for you and go with it. Train, train, train. It's rarely the weapon that ends up playing a factor in who will win the battle, but the tactics, knowledge, and skill of the fighter.

[SR420]

It's rarely the weapon that ends up playing a factor in who will win the battle, but the tactics, knowledge, and skill of the fighter.

Yep, whatever weapon you choose... know it well.

[jsmaye]

For instance, people will say that the AR15 has to be cleaned every 1000 rounds or so, otherwise you will suffer reliability issues ...

1000 rounds between cleaning? Wouldn't that cause reliability issues with just about any gun?

The one that bugs me the most is the "carbon build up". It is simply not an issue with proper lubrication.

Just asking for clarification here - isn't carbon build-up due to the lack of a gas piston? If so, I don't see how lubrication will matter.

I like your overall point about the fact that the performance envelopes of both these platforms is closer to the middle, and that the exaggerated pros and cons of each is more due to aesthetics, loyalty to both the invested platforms and their countries of origin - I respect the point that some won't own a weapon either used against us or from a former/current hostile country, but that doesn't make the gun itself better or worse - and just downright cheerleading made possible by the anonymity of the internet.

[cat9x]

Took the standard issue M-4 with me to Afghanistan. Spent more than 14 hours outdoors everyday. I kept the dust cover closed. It endured sand in the barrel, wind, and dust that penetrates everything. Even used it to prop myself up against from time to time. Never failed to fire when I needed it. Gave it a moderate once a week cleaning with CLP and never had a problem with it.

"Unreliability" is a term I tend to associate with people who do not know how to care for or clean their firearms. Granted, some guns are more tempermental than others but I find that about 80-90% of all field malfunctions/jams are because of poor maintenance on the user end, or the operator not knowing their weapon.

I give my vote to the AR from a stand point of incompetent operators that are too lazy to take care of their equipment. AK is reliable...so is the AR. AR=more accuracy, longer range, 5.56=higher velocity round, more customizable.

AMEN!

[Willie D]

1000 rounds between cleaning? Wouldn't that cause reliability issues with just about any gun?

Not an AK. And I say that with experience.

OK - Average AR beats standard issue combloc AK in these categories:

Accuracy
Range
Weight
Controls
Sights
Customization, modularity

AK wins on:

Reliability
Durability (including mags)
Size (vs fullsize AR)
Stopping power (7.62x39)

AR vs stock AK = AR wins

However, chamber the AK in .223 and accuracy improves.
Put on a secure dustcover and peep sights, handling, accuracy improves(Valmet, Galil).

All the sudden the "AK" comes up even in sights and accuracy and wins on reliability.


Direct impingement is a weak link in the AR's design and it has been for 50 years. Yes, ARs work fine if you keep them clean but it becomes a non-critical issue with other designs. A soldier could easily fire more than 1000 rounds during an advance with no time for cleaning. Reliability should be one of the top requirements of any combat rifle.

Put it this way; NO ONE IS EVER GOING TO MAKE ANOTHER DIRECT IMPINGEMENT DESIGN AGAIN. The SCAR, XCR, ACR, G36, and Daewoo K2 all show that you can get increased reliabilty with piston designs and not sacrifice anything.