Yet another 9mm vs .357 Sig

[JGKC9AYC]

Most of the threads I found while searching were 6-8 years old. Perhaps prices have changed by now.
Between a Glock 19 and a Sig P229 I was thinking about for CC, i've noticed the price was usually (most of the time) higher for .357 Sig for target practice. When it came to self defense rounds, there was little difference, assuming one was looking at similar ammo (i.e. Speer Gold Dot).
I'm not sure on recoil of a +P fired out of a polymer gun vs. a .357 Sig fired from a steel gun.
With round capacity almost equal, is the .357 Sig the better round considering everything?

[tipoc]

A better round? It's best to say it's a more powerful round, which is clearly true.

A "better" round takes a number of factors into consideration other than a head to head comparison of the rounds.

Get a G19 for the 9mm and get a Sig P229 or 226 for the 40 S&W and the 357 Sig (all you need to do is switch the barrels).

It's the cost and availability of practice ammo that limits the 357 Sig.

tipoc

[Model12Win]

Yes, it is superior.

But how much so? And for what?

IMHO shot placement rules and the 9mm makes a lot more sense, especially with the myriad of good loads we've got in the caliber today.

[Lohman446]

I like odd rounds and I like bottleneck pistol rounds just because they are cool. The "advantages" of .357SIG is drastically oversold. No it is not a .357 Magnum in an auto loader any more than 10MM is a .41 magnum. Matching one, fairly anemic, round from a selection of another firearm does not make that particular cartridge equal to another - I'm sorry it just does not.

With round capacity almost equal, is the .357 Sig the better round considering everything?

See that ever so important caveat you have in there. I underlined it. The thing that .357 SIG does better (launching a 9MM round at higher velocity) could use that same caveat. As much as I understand the theoretical advantage of the bottleneck I don't see feed issues with 9MM. This means velocity is THE thing the .357SIG does "better" and its advantages are questionable at best in the vast majority of self defense situations. It also does so with more recoil and noise and less capacity.

As to the cost of defensive ammo vs practice ammo - most of us will buy FAR more practice ammo than defensive ammo so don't get sucked into that argument.

I like the .357 SIG round. I like the .40 Super (once proposed as the .40 SIG) even more. For real world self defense use I don't buy the superiority argument of the 357 SIG over 9MM. The things it does "better" are "almost equal" anyways.

[kozak6]

For your purposes, sure.

For my purposes, no. Online prices for cheap 9mm are somewhat less than half the price of cheap .357 Sig, and there aren't many (if any) single stack subcompact .357 Sigs. And ordinary 9mm is probably better suited for those pistols anyways.

To each his own.

[ligonierbill]

I like the 357 Sig, but I'm a caliber junkie. I might even carry my 226, but I don't usually. I carry a subcompact 9 mm because...it's small. It's plenty lively enough with the 9 mm. I load my own, but for practice ammo I buy 9 mm. It's cheap!

If you want to have fun with calibers, fair warning, it's addictive. But practical, real world defense, go 9x19 and practice much.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by JGKC9AYC

I'm not sure on recoil of a +P fired out of a polymer gun vs. a .357 Sig fired from a steel gun.

You can determine recoil force with different gun weights and ammo with a recoil calculator. try this one; http://kwk.us/recoil.html

for powder weight use 6 grains for 9mm +P and 10 grains for 357 Sig.

[tipoc]

The 357 Sig is not a "better round considering everything". Particularly as the criteria you advanced for "everything" was the cost of practice ammo and the weight of a steel gun vs. a polymer framed gun, and that round count was "almost" the same.

Given the "everything" criteria of what's "best" set up by the OP. Then the .357 Sig comes up short.

The Sig P226 that you mentioned has an aluminum alloy frame and not a steel frame.

"Recoil calculators" work well for revolvers and long guns if they are bolt action or lever action, etc. They are not accurate for semi-auto pistols or semi-auto long guns. That's because they cannot take into account the the reciprocal action of the recoil spring and slide.

On price of ammo you can go here,

https://www.midwayusa.com/357-sig/br?cid=21682

and here,

https://www.midwayusa.com/9mm-luger/br?cid=21659

to get a rough comparison of the costs of practice ammo. Draw your own conclusions.

For over a century pistols have been made in 9mm and some of the best handguns made are being made in 9mm. You're going to need a couple of those. So get some.

If you want to play with the .357 Sig then get a Sig P226 or 229, those are the best guns for that round, IMHO.

To debate which round is "better" is simply a silly and pointless discussion.

tipoc

[JGKC9AYC]

I guess "better" was a bad choice of words,
I'm not trying to get in a ballistics argument or anything either.
I've shot the P229 with practice (Winchester) ammo & it had quite the kick. I would assume the defensive caliber would have the same.
I've not shot a 9mm in a polymer nor an "aluminum alloy" frame.
I guess this is the point where I ask if the cost of a +P round offers more advantage over a non-+P JHP for a defensive round.

[Fishbed77]

Yes, it is superior.

Not to get into caliber wars, but .357 SIG is superior in exactly ONE respect:

-energy (and penetration as it applies)

9mm is going to be superior in at least the following respects:

-recoil management
-capacity
-cost
-availability
-ammo options

.357 SIG has it's place. My brother-in-law is a resource management officer in the mountains of Pennsylvania, and his issue firearm is a Glock 31 in .357 SIG. It makes a lot of sense when you are going to be encountering threats of both the 4-legged variety (bears, large angry beavers - ask me how I know), and the 2-legged variety (meth-heads and Amish poachers).

But absent some of those threats, 9mm begins to make a lot more sense.

[pblanc]

LuckyGunner is a reasonable resource for comparing terminal ballistic performance in gelatin and muzzle velocities for various common SD handgun loads:

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self...tic-tests/#9mm

If you compare the performance and muzzle velocity of 9 mm P versus +P loads for the same manufacturer and same projectile mass, you will see that going from standard pressure P loads to +P loads gains less than 100 fps in muzzle velocity. This might result in slightly greater maximal expansion. The addition in muzzle velocity may be of greater benefit in compact pistols with short barrels since with a very short barrel, projectiles may fail to reach their maximum potential muzzle velocity.

Although LuckyGunner does not have ballistic data for 357 SIG loads, if you go to various individual manufacturer's websites and compare muzzle velocities for 9 mm Luger P loads and 357 SIG loads of the same or nearly the same projectile mass (usually 124 grain for 9 mm Luger and 125 grain for 357 SIG) you will find that 357 SIG consistently gains over 100 fps and often 200 fps or more over 9 mm P loadings of the same projectile type.

So velocity-wise, 9 mm Luger +P is sort of in between 9 mm standard pressure P loads and 357 SIG loads, and is closer to standard pressure 9 mm than it is to 357 SIG.

So 357 SIG is quite a bit faster than even +P 9mm Luger. What does this gain you and what does it cost?

The 357 SIG cartridge being faster is flatter shooting. This might appeal to those who anticipate having to shoot at distance. It is probably not a factor for the typical civilian self-defense scenario.

Since 9 mm Luger and 357 SIG projectiles of the same or nearly the same mass have equivalent diameters, they have essentially the same sectional density. Since sectional density and muzzle velocity are primary determinates of efficiency of barrier penetration, 357 SIG can be expected to outperform 9 mm Luger much of the time if shooting through auto doors or glass, airplane seats, etc. This may or may not be an advantage for civilian SD.

Improved feeding of the bottle-neck 357 SIG cartridge is often cited as a plus, but with modern semi-auto pistols reliable feeding of both 9 mm Luger and .40 S&W can be expected so I think this consideration is rather overblown.

357 SIG ammunition is definitely more expensive when it comes to FMJ practice ammunition and the selection is much more limited when you must buy it locally, at least where I live. On-line I can periodically find 357 SIG FMJ ammunition for 50% higher cost than 9 mm P but it is often 100% higher in cost.

In my experience, 357 SIG does have significantly greater perceived recoil than 9 mm +P when shot from pistols of similar size and weight. The SIG P229 is widely-regarded as one of the best pistols available for managing the recoil of 357 SIG.

Magazine capacity is typically reduced by 2-3 rounds going from 9 mm to 357 SIG.

The 357 SIG cartridge is definitely louder and creates more muzzle flash than 9 mm Luger which could be detrimental if one needs to shoot if or from enclosed spaces without hearing protection, or in dim lighting.

I do have a SIG P229 and shoot both .40 S&W and 357 SIG with it. Personally, for any realistic self-defense scenario that I can see myself in, I do not see 357 SIG having any advantage over .40 S&W.

[JGKC9AYC]

Originally Posted by pblanc

Personally, for any realistic self-defense scenario that I can see myself in, I do not see 357 SIG having any advantage over .40 S&W.

But does it have a significant advantage over the +P?

[pblanc]

Well, how much do you feel the need for another 100-150 fps of muzzle velocity?

[BIGR]

For a defensive round between the 9MM and .357 SIG, the .357 SIG really shines and would be my main choice if I could just have one pistol and if I had to choose between the two. The 125 grain Speer Gold Dot is the ticket.

If you asked me how I know, at different times I carried both (9MM, 357 Sig) and the .40 CAL. over the years. I know of several defensive shootings where the .357 Sig pretty well stopped the threat with one shot. Sorry I don't have the stats to compare the three cartridges but the .357 SIG is my favorite like I said earlier.

As far as shooting and controllability I have no problems firing my Sig P226 with the 357 Sig, Speer Gold Dot one handed (weak hand).

The 9MM with good ammo is no slouch of course and it is cheaper to shoot. Ammo improvements has really been a game changer and has turned some decent performing cartridges into great performing cartridges(Example: 9MM).

If you are asking if the 357 Sig has an advantage over the 9MM +P, yes I think it does, since it has more energy and velocity.

[T. O'Heir]

"...is the .357 Sig the better round..." No. Neither is the 9mm better though. The SIG is mostly used by the shooting game players because it gives 'em the fanciful(and fictitious) power factor the shooting games require. Same thing applies to the .38 Super.
Felt recoil is only comparable using like bullet weights at the same velocity out of the same weight pistol. A polymer frame will generally always weigh less than the same sized steel frame pistol. So the felt recoil will be more out of the polymer.
+P is about pressure. Not velocity too.

[Ruger45LC]

The 357 SIG is definitely more powerful and if anyone handloads, you can wake it up and get some rather serious numbers. But generally, practice ammo for the 357 SIG is significantly more expensive but the defensive stuff is similarly priced. Is it worth it? I think so, plus it's a cool bottlenecked pistol cartridge. If you got a Glock 32 (same size as G19) you could buy a 9mm conversion barrel and shoot 9mm from the G32, but then again, it's probably a good idea to practice with what you would carry.

[Poohgyrr]

Personal choice.

Paper numbers have their place and use, but never forget that Mother Nature has her own rules and doesn’t care about our feelings. Our city streets and hunting fields have their own rules.

The 357Sig has dramatically better results on the street, than the 9X19. Just like the 125Gr JHP 357Magnum vs 158gr LRN 38Special.

Recoil? Again, this is a personal thing. Go shoot a SSK handcannon. Or a light weight Magnum snub revolver. Those have recoil.

Personal choice, medical issues, finances, laws and policies, skill, etc, all play a part in our decisions.

My two cents, and worth every penny.

[Lohman446]

The 357Sig has dramatically better results on the street, than the 9X19.

Citation required

[Onward Allusion]

The benefits of 9mm are many:
- many more make/models
- less than 0.25 per per target round
- more guns chambered
- and I'm sure there are a few more. . .

BUT it can't match or exceed 357 Sig's ballistic performance and any informed person claiming that 9mm does is smoking dope.

So...better? No. More power/energy? Yup.

BTW, even though my EDC is a G27, I'm considering dropping in a G33 barrel and swapping mags.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by Onward Allusion

BUT it can't match or exceed 357 Sig's ballistic performance and any informed person claiming that 9mm does is smoking dope.

9 Major can.

[Fishbed77]

The 357Sig has dramatically better results on the street, than the 9X19.

Citation required

Agreed, because this statement flies in the face of actual data of the effect of pistol-caliber rounds on the human body. That is to say - the results of of most common handgun rounds are very similar. They all suck at incapacitating humans compared to rifle rounds.

http://www.policemag.com/channel/wea...realities.aspx

https://www.grandviewoutdoors.com/gu...-pistol-round/

[carguychris]

Noise is another disadvantage to .357 SIG that has been touched upon but not discussed at length. Having fired a G33 at an indoor range, I can vouch for the fact that the round is SERIOUSLY WHOA DANG LOUD out of a short barrel, enough so that other shooters gathered around the lane with looks of astonishment on their faces.

Originally Posted by Poohgyrr

The 357Sig has dramatically better results on the street, than the 9X19. Just like the 125Gr JHP 357Magnum vs 158gr LRN 38Special.

There is FAR more ballistic difference between .38Spl+P and .357Mag than between 9x19 and .357 SIG.

Also, FWIW the main reason that LE agencies have chosen .357 SIG over 9mm is not "dramatically better results on the street" (i.e. enhanced incapacitation), but rather its superior ability to penetrate auto bodies and auto glass. This is far more important to LE—specifically highway patrolmen—than it is to civilians, as relatively few civilian SD incidents involve shooting through barriers.

[tipoc]

From JGKC9AYC:

But does it have a significant advantage over the +P?

Yes, in the same way that the 40 S&W or 38 Super have an advantage over the 9mm. It's more powerful. They are always going to be more powerful.

You can see this very clearly by looking at the bullet weights and velocities available from the 357 Sig versus the 9mm. Go look:

https://www.midwayusa.com/357-sig/br?cid=21682

https://www.midwayusa.com/9mm-luger/br?cid=21659

As you can see a 9mm bullet of 147 gr. traveling at over 1200 fps from the 357 Sig is much more powerful than any 9mm +P+ available. A 180 gr. bullet from the 357 Sig at over 1000 fps is more than the 9mm can produce or even carry.

But, as everyone here is advising you, a more powerful round is not the only factor involved in choosing a handgun and load. This is particularly the case for newer shooters.

tipoc

[HighValleyRanch]

A 180 gr. bullet from the 357 Sig at over 1000 fps

A sig .357 has an 180 grain bullet?
I know I'm getting that from my .40.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by HighValleyRanch

A sig .357 has an 180 grain bullet?
I know I'm getting that from my .40.

a quick google search reveals: http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.p...product_id=618