Carrying Personal Weapons in Military

[BarryLee]

Ok, in the overall scheme of things I guess this really isn’t a big deal, but it’s just got me curious. Over the holidays I saw an old friend who brought along her new boyfriend. He was a former US Army Infantryman and had been deployed to Iraq. During our conversation he showed me his Springfield Armory .45acp 1911 and stated that it was the actual gun he carried into battle.

So, not being in the military and not wanting to doubt the guys word I didn’t say anything, but it just got me wondering. So, are they allowed to carry personal handguns? What about a gun that fires a caliber of ammunition different from what is commonly used. How would he transport it to and from Iraq?

Again, not a big deal, but I was under the impression that other than some Special Forces and maybe Officers that this just wasn’t allowed.

[WannabeMiculek]

Wondered the same thing, especially when it comes to the different calibers and magazines than the weapon issued( M9 or now the m17/18).

[ATN082268]

Most military service members won't be issued a handgun to start with. I'm sure it is possible to smuggle a small personal weapon into a combat zone but I highly doubt it would be authorized. The handgun in question also doesn't use the commonly used 9mm ammunition.

[Scoits]

Well, in my time nothing was against carrying your own as long as you carried the weapon you were issued.
my time was 1952/52 and I had a colt cobra 38 spl that I took with me in a shoulder holster to Korea. Swapped it off for something{?] but at that time there were many personal weapons in use and as stated as long as you carried your issue weapon you were good to go.

[T. O'Heir]

In most places what's allowed and what actually happens are different things. The CF doesn't allow personal weapons on any CF range, but it's been known to happen just the same. There's also a time line factor.
However, the answer is no. If a guy get caught carrying a handgun loaded with HP's, he's guilty of a war crime for one.
Read snakemanmike's post. https://www.strategypage.com/militar...tartofcomments

[44 AMP]

In most places what's allowed and what actually happens are different things

Absolutely true.

Carrying a personal, privately owned weapon is against US military rules, HOWEVER, smart commanders allow considerable leeway for troops on "the sharp end". As long as its not done in an "in your face" manner, the official rules prohibiting it are usually overlooked in combat zones.

Try the same thing on a base stateside, and if the wrong officer (or NCO) sees it, you could be up on charges.

As to the hollowpoint/war crimes thing, each nation has their own view of this. As I understand it, the current US view is that if we are not fighting an organized uniformed military who is a signatory to those old treaties, (the Hague, & Geneva conventions) then use of hollow points is not a war crime.

We don't use HP much even though, legally we could, when we are fighting "terrorists".

[fredvon4]

The Ops post really confuses me

I was drafted 1973 and retired after 14 months Army Command Sergeants Major CSM in 1996

I actually retired as a First Sergeant as I did not have the time in grade for true E-9 retirement

Went to combat several times but not Vietnam... the very last war that a soldier could legally posses a "Captured" enemy weapon

I was always issued a UNIT weapon that had to be in the ARMS room at all times except in combat or training...

I was NEVER aware of ANY soldier getting possession of a Military issued weapon excepting some General Officers....historically documented

In each and every combat zone(CZ) there were ALWAYS Combatant Commander’s General Orders (GO)

IN each CZ I was sent to... one of the General orders was ALWAYS ZERO civilian weapons authorized... and along was the No Alcohol GO

I later was a Department of the Army Civilian with duty in a few combat zones....in Every Case as a DA civilian I was specifically prohibited from carrying a personal weapon...period

But just so you understand anything is possible... the support Soldiers sent to escort me and my teams in the combat zones ----all knew this was a stupid Order and each time I was "In Country" ...some savvy E-7 Sergeants First Class, or E-8 First Sergeant supporting my team ----slipped me a ISSUE Berretta 9mm or 1911 .45 and some ammo

True story...not believable today on ANY airline post 9/11

When I returned from First Gulf War in 1991
I had been issued a M-16A2 at the Regional processing center sending me to Saudi
This rifle was from some National Guard inventory and the Guard unit that processed us had disbanded while I was overseas.

I was sent from TRADOC Ft Eustis VA for a specific mission.
While in Saudi the mission completed...
I was temp assigned to the 8th BN 101st Airborne Division and eventually sent to Fort Carson with all my issued gear
I was further sent back to home base TRADOC Ft Eustis, again with all my issued gear

Fort Campbell sent me via Nashville commercial air to Norfolk Virginia...with all my ISSUED gear.... so I arrive in desert camo and a black M-16 and the check in girl never bats an eye....I ask what am I to do with this rifle... she asked...is it loaded? No sez I

Board the plane sir.... that is it

I got the obligatory hero welcome at Norfolk and quickly asked my commander what do I do with this rifle...he has no clue...suggests turn it into our unit arms room Monday

I went home... repatriated with wife and family

Monday reported to work…started clearing all my hand receipts… turn in combat gear, see finance and get paid the Temp duty bucks… got to arms room…sergeant does not want it… NOT on inventory list… go see the Executive officer…. Hummm it is NOT on the Property Book…. Co is listening in and sez…Hey Fred see it the Provost Marshal will take it off you hands…Head to MP station…tell my story for 23rd time

Desk Sergeant sez…. Yep got 12 of them already…here is a receipt… give me the rifle


Some weird reason I think that desk sergeant has a personal stash of M-16A2s as they all were NOT on any property books after the war closed and the NG units were disbanded….

26 years later I still have the receipt for the M-16A2 I turned into the MP station

So way back up top….

Quote
“Over the holidays I saw an old friend who brought along her new boyfriend. He was a former US Army Infantryman and had been deployed to Iraq. During our conversation he showed me his Springfield Armory .45acp 1911 and stated that it was the actual gun he carried into battle.”

One…only Infantry soldier weapons are ISSUED weapons unless in some classified CIA support type mission

I never knew of any soldier being able to purchase a ISSUED weapon

One scenario comes to mind that I do know happened a few times…. In units I was in combat with

In training/peace time a LOST weapon is very serious and units will spend days and weeks trying to find it

Lost weapons in combat zones…. If the soldier’s story makes sense…are just written off and an new weapon issued

hummmm

[SIGSHR]

Yes, forbidden-and Not A Good Idea. Lose your personally owned weapon and you'll be Singing The Blues. And people who have served recently have told me even knives-a Boy Scout knife or a multi-tool are forbidden. Remember the US military is not really a pro-gun organization, small arms are seen as a PITB.

[Bob Wright]

While in the US, I had to get my company commander's permission, in a letter, that allowed me to have my gun on post. And with that, and his oral permission, I was allowed to carry my Ruger Blackhawk.

And I was allowed to shoot my Ruger on the shooting range operated by the Service Club, and shot issued .38 Special ammunition. We could get all the ammo we wanted so lang as it was .22 L.R., .38 Special, .45 ACP, .30 Carbine, or .30 M-1 ammunition. Other calibers were permitted, but shooters had to buy their own ammo. One of my buddies shot .38 Super and another .30 Remington. And 12 ga. was available by the truckload, for Service Club Browning Superposed guns.

And seems to me a certain General carried two very flashy revolvers, into combat.

Bob Wright

[fredvon4]

On the same subject of persona carry by soldiers

Few years back here at Fort Hood we had the nut case major kill and shoot up the place

Started a National debate about why soldiers should NOT all be ARMED ALL the TIME

I shudder at that thought....13,000 soldiers all zooming around Fort Hood every day is a bad idea

Lost weapons
Idiot pointing at freind
accident discharges
failure to clear properly
Drunk and pist at buddy for messing with girl friend
Re-po man getting the car/tv you will not pay the bill for
Sargent yelled made you feel small

My last ten years of peace time Senior NCO Leading had me dealing with personal problems every day

IMO Every soldier Armed Every Day is a disaster looking for a place to happen...motor pool, chow line, PX.... barracks....

super Shudder

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Lost weapons
Idiot pointing at freind
accident discharges
failure to clear properly
Drunk and pist at buddy for messing with girl friend
Re-po man getting the car/tv you will not pay the bill for
Sargent yelled made you feel small

Good thing civilians and war zones don’t have any of those temptations.

[Lohman446]

Second hand war stories...

I have been told by a couple people serving in different capacities in foreign lands that they were told by commanding officers to acquire a non-issue weapon for personal use while out of uniform from in theater suppliers.

[Tom68]

fredvon4, I had to laugh at your M-16 story: I'm envisioning some poor NG Major just this morning being appointed as a 15-6 investigating officer to determine the whereabouts of an M-16A2 that has just been reported missing after all these years...

No joke, when my battalion arrived in Iraq in 2007, the outgoing command was just finishing up a 15-6 on one of the USAR companies we were inheriting: a $21 million FLIPL (Financial Liability Investigation of Property Loss-- we called them a Report of Survey back in your day). This organization had mobilized in support of the recovery effort during Hurricane Katrina in 2005, and during/afterward they had left vehicles strung out between TX and LA, and for some reason had transferred dozens of rifles to a warehouse in Ft. Stewart but evidently the PBO had failed to document the transfer in PBUSE. It was only during the THIRD change of command inventory that all of this property was discovered missing. Ugh.

Now, back to the personal weapon thing: During the past 27 years it has always been clear to me and everyone around me that personal weapons were an absolute no-no, and to the best of my knowledge everyone in my sphere has complied with that rule. That being said, during two deployments to the CENTCOM AOR, I don't recall any inspection of any type being conducted coming into the AOR, and only a customs inspection going out. I suppose a determined and perhaps fearless Soldier could have gotten a personal weapon in, and might have even been successful getting one out.

Oh, and one of my OCS classmates was one of those shot by the nut case at Ft. Hood. His unit had SRP'd in that building the day prior, but for some reason he didn't finish and had to go back. Another of my Soldiers was also there but luckily wasn't among those hit.

[Arizona Fusilier]

I was told a long time ago when I asked that question as a young 2LT......" You are not a General Officer, you are not allowed to prescribe your own uniform".

Didn't even play the safety card. But that was back in 1984. I am sure it's a different Army now.

[rodfac]

I saw a variety of "personal weapons" while on my first tour in Vietnam, 1970. From a Browning Hi-Power that I personally carried, to several .45 1911's. It was never officially authorized and was discouraged, especially by REMF commanders, but was not uncommon in combat units. Rod

[Dfariswheel]

According to best info on the recent Sand Wars, special ops people usually are allowed to carry a personal purchase handgun, but NOT rifle.
Attitude seems to be that if you're a Special Forces or SEAL you have enough sense to be trusted with a personal handgun and the concern is that you be effective as possible and if that takes a personal handgun, so be it.

All other troops are banned from bringing personal weapons.
Other troops have managed to take personal handguns TO the theater of operations, but it's almost impossible to bring it back.
Since security GOING is not as tight, personal handguns have been taken.
Often the gun is sold or given to another soldier when it's time to return home.

Coming home the military is VERY down on smuggled arms, explosives, drugs and other souvenirs and do diligent searches of gear to insure nothing banned is attempted to be brought home.

Some people who managed to bring home personal or enemy weapons were people coming home with trucks, armor, and heavy equipment.
In that kind of large gear it's easy to find hiding places, and some units were not effective at searching it.

There were several cases of special ops and standard troops caught attempting to smuggle full-auto arms home.
I seem to remember a couple of SEAL's caught with AK-47 rifles, one some time after returning home and attempting to sell one.

From what I've read, personal knives were permitted going and coming home.
Some units going so far as to make group purchases of knives, especially the more useful folding type knives, and at least one unit buying commercial folder knives and issuing them to the troops.

As an example of what happens when personal arms are allowed........
When things were hot in Iraq and Afghanistan there was a directive came down banning all M16 magazines except official issue aluminum mags.
People were bringing all kinds of crap and "trick" mags that were substandard and often failed in combat.
This jeopardized lives and missions, so the order banning everything except USGI aluminum.

As soon as all the commercial crap was purged, the Mag-Pul was re-authorized but you had to buy them yourself.
After that, only USGI issue aluminum and private purchase Mag-Pul was allowed.

[agtman]

According to best info on the recent Sand Wars, special ops people usually are allowed to carry a personal purchase handgun, but NOT rifle.
Attitude seems to be that if you're a Special Forces or SEAL you have enough sense to be trusted with a personal handgun and the concern is that you be effective as possible and if that takes a personal handgun, so be it.

Next war, if I can't take my 10mm Bren Ten, ... well, I ain't going.

[EIGHTYDUECE]

My time in the Army was '90 to '97 and Desert Shield/Desert Storm was my only deployment. From my experience, getting one there was easy. Getting it back home was the hard part and how one would get a non standard ammo drawn to him would also be almost impossible. When we re-deployed home, all our gear was laid out and searched by MPs looking for explosives (grenades, captured weapons, etc). The only way one might be able to bring his own handgun would be to bring a civilian version of the issued weapon to get past the MP search. Ammo would still be hard even if your handgun used 9mm. I know my squad leader, Platoon Sgt. and Lt. would immediately know I had a non issued weapon every time the LT. did his daily "Golddust" report (that was the radio code for sensitive items report) on the radio. This was active duty in the 82nd. Getting even standard ammo would be hard since my immediate chain of command knows I was not issued an M9.

When ever I hear stories by some guys saying things like this, my "stolen valor" radar goes up and I start asking questions to see if they were even really deployed and even in the service. Its not impossible, just not very likely. Of course my time was over 20 years ago and times could have changed.

[armoredman]

I had a personally owned UZI Model B in the ships armory, and a few other people had personal firearms in there. They STAYED in there unless the owner checked them out through the Captain and received an escort off base. I actually bought that UZI in California, to tell you how long ago that was, and I simply had no place off ship to keep the thing. The reaction of the gate guard at Concord Naval Weapons Station was priceless, when I showed up with my authorized memo at the gate. Last time I got driven anywhere in a Jeep - pre Hummer days, they were.
The Captain purchased some Remington 1100s for use on the flight deck shooting clay pigeons, but they didn't get much use in the Gulf.
The Armory also had 4 Ruger Service Six revolvers with no idea why they were there, Navy property, but no idea why.

[kraigwy]

Regulations forbid military using privately owned guns, but Regulations are Guidence for the Commander, not doctrine. People do what they can get away with.

We werent suppose to have private weapons in Vietnam but a lot of people had them shipped over. I dont know how it was in the rear but I've never seen any commanders bitch if they caught us Grunts carrying a revolver their parents shipped over.

I have a M1911A1 and I supposed I could have had it shipped over but getting it shipped back home would have been harder. Never occurred to me since I had an issue M1911a1 anyway.

Its kind of what you can get away with. After I got out of the Army I joined the NG. We were using M16a1s at the time. Not liking dealing with unit armors, if we had to draw weapons for qualifications or anything else (including FTXs) I carried my SP1. No one was the wiser. After OCS I was suppose to have a pistol as a TO&E issue weapon. I carried my personal M1911a1 which kept me from dealing with the armor.

Even when they got the Beretta, being a die hard 1911 guy, I still carried my M1911a1 as if it was my issued weapon. No one was the wiser, those who knew the difference didnt care.

Also, I started the AK NG Sniper Program, while at the same time I carried a Model 700 Remington in 223 as a counter sniper rifle as a police officer. I often took it to guard drills and even jumped with it, mainly to see how it held up.

I also took it to the Sniper school, but I ran the school so that was no biggy.

I dont know how hard it would be now, (I retired in '92) but soldiers always have, and always will do what they can get away with.

As to the original poster I dont know about todays wars but I do know people sent their pistols home during Vietnam, not legally of course, but it happened. Weapon accountability was pretty lax in Vietnam. When I first got there, I was handed a M16a1 and told I'd better turn in the same weapon with the same serial number when I left or I'd be going to jail. Got to my unit and was told to trade it for an M-60. Throughout my tour, I traded the M-60 and M16 back and forth several times never worrying about the serial number. The issue never was brought up when I left.

But I dont know how many M1911s were issued in the Iraq war, that would be the question I would have.

My wife was activated during the first part of this Iraq war. She was issued a M16a2. Not sure she ever carried it. She was an Intel Clerk and if she left base she carried a Beretta. She broke her back and was medivaced out. I went over an was staying with her. We took her to the medivac plane. She didnt have her rifle, so I called her boss and told him it was in her office and he said he'd turn it in. No paper work, nothing. I guess he could have done anything with it. That was in late 2003 and we havent heard anything I guess he must have turned it it.

As Robert Service said, "Strange things have occured in the land of the Midnight Sun"

Anything is possible when it comes to GIs.

[jmhyer]

Fred,
I appreciate your service and respect your opinion. However, the concern you expressed above is one of the common arguments against everyday citizens carrying in public anywhere...but, in particular, on college campuses or in any densely populated area. Just curious how you would counter those arguments...or are you also against citizen carry? Not trying to start an argument, just trying to see how the two scenarios are different.

[joed]

I think things are different in a combat zone. While in Vietnam I saw many guns that you normally wouldn't see. One of the pilots carryed a Ruger Blackhawk, while someone carried a .45 tommy gun on patrols. I had a sergeant that carried a Browning hi power. There were many more that I can't recall at the moment.

Don't think this would go over in the states.

[OzeanJaeger]

You have to remember most service men are 18-20. I was for changing the legal drinking laws to 18 till I spent time at on-base Eclubs. That pretty much cured me of the notion that anyone who can be sent to war ought to be able to drink...

Same thing goes for POFs. Follow the laws (21) and it should be fine. I certainly do not believe than any E-5s or above should not be allowed to carry a side arm at all times if they should choose. I think it's insulting and factually wrong any other way.

[ATN082268]

Originally Posted by fredvon4

On the same subject of persona carry by soldiers

Few years back here at Fort Hood we had the nut case major kill and shoot up the place

Started a National debate about why soldiers should NOT all be ARMED ALL the TIME

If anything, that incident should have given pause as to why more soldiers aren't armed. After all, most soldiers weren't allowed to carry weapons on base at the time, which allowed Major Nutjob to carry out and be more effective in his killing spree.

Originally Posted by fredvon4

I shudder at that thought....13,000 soldiers all zooming around Fort Hood every day is a bad idea

Lost weapons
Idiot pointing at freind
accident discharges
failure to clear properly
Drunk and pist at buddy for messing with girl friend
Re-po man getting the car/tv you will not pay the bill for
Sargent yelled made you feel small

My last ten years of peace time Senior NCO Leading had me dealing with personal problems every day

IMO Every soldier Armed Every Day is a disaster looking for a place to happen...motor pool, chow line, PX.... barracks....

super Shudder

O.K. First, allowing soldiers to carry weapons doesn't automatically mean every single one will. Second, and more importantly, if someone does something irresponsible with a weapon, like point it at other people, that should be dealt with by punishing the irresponsible person. If I had to guess, I'd say a large part of the resistance to allowing all soldiers to carry centers on those uncomfortable with treating armed people like crap. How about treating people with respect? Isn't respect one of the Army values?

[fredvon4]

The question on personal carry on a military base vs allowing college students or other segments of our society

My opinion is from being an Army brat starting in 1955 until I retired from all government service in 2012....57 years of living on or near military bases

Riots----barracks or clubs or motor pools
Drug dealers
Prostitution...external and internal
Conscripted or court ordered soldiers NOT wanting to be there
Officer and NCO fragging
Willful sabotage of equipment
Wife beating
Suicide
Race relations issues
Gender relation issues
Rapes...all genders
Murders
Bank robbery
Pay Officer robbery... (90% eliminated when we moved to direct deposit)
Arms room, ammo storage thefts
lost equipment..specifically weapons
Tired wet sick miserable grumpy soldiers

list not all inclusive of all the bad problems I dealt with in my career.... nor is it sorted in any way...just of top of head

Since we changed to an all volunteer Army, mid 1974, a lot of the problems reduced BUT still exist

I could see a personal security argument for SOME soldiers to be armed daily to augment military police by being a built in first responder within a unit work area

The notion being the problem is right here right now and MPs are 10 min away

Part of my knee jerk NO WAY for ALL SOLDIERS ARMED ALL THE TIME:

IN 1973 PFC Green did not like me and my recent promotion to Corporal
He came sneeking and creeping one night with his issued bayonet while we out in the "field" training

He intended to kill me.... something he told one of his friends. That guy told his sergeant, who reported it to the commander. Who told me. Plan was to bed down as normal but First shirt and some trusted NCOs would intercept Green who was courts martial for attempted murder

Yes ----certainly, we can all agree that if all soldiers were armed the 2009 Fort Hood shooting; where Nidal Hasan, a U.S. Army major and psychiatrist, fatally shot 13 people and injured more than 30 others ---would have probably not even have happened

BUT every bad indecent ...and I assure you there would be some... of soldier on soldier weapons involved ...would just give anti gun folks too much ammo (bad pun)

My core belief on general population.... we have very good stats here in Texas since Concealed Carry became legal....the bad actor License holders are a small fraction of the anti gun folks predictions

I prefer Constitution 2nd Amendment restrictions be very limited and all citizens behave responsibly to keep each other safe all the time