The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old March 10, 2010, 10:36 AM   #1
thawntex
Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2008
Posts: 84
Leaving gun with untrained but trusted child caregiver

My parents come over often to watch my children. They might stay for an hour or two while I run errands, or overnight while my wife and I have a date.

I wouldn't say that firearms are completely foreign to them, but I certainly wouldn't call them proficient shooters. We didn't have guns in the house during my childhood. My dad came from a family of hunters, but he never hunted as an adult. My mom speaks of shooting with family members while growing up, but I've never seen her touch a gun. All in all, guns just aren't part of my immediate family's culture.

That said, I wouldn't consider it wise to lock up my HD gun every time I leave my kids at home with them. I trust them implicitly, and I'd rather they possess some sort of recourse if threatened.

I recently decided to show my mother where I keep the P226. I told her everything I could about it. She was surprisingly receptive.

Still, I worry that their lack of training and knowledge might hinder their response should something go bump in the night. What can I do to encourage them to become proficient if they're not naturally interested in guns? Am I doing the right thing by leaving the Sig accessible to them in the first place?
thawntex is offline  
Old March 10, 2010, 10:42 AM   #2
hoytinak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 5, 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,719
Take'm to the range.
hoytinak is offline  
Old March 10, 2010, 10:45 AM   #3
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,435
I would certainly take them shooting.

Telling someone about a gun does not necessarily make them able to use it. Make sure that they know how to use it.
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives...
...they just don't plan not to.
-Andy Stanley
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old March 10, 2010, 10:59 AM   #4
JohnH1963
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 22, 2008
Posts: 416
Yes, you are doing the wrong thing. If there are non-trained persons or persons that have not been shooting within the last year, then the firearms should be disassembled and securely locked in a steel container with the ammo hidden and locked in a seperate container.

As a gun owner, you have a very strict set of liability guidelines and so you must go above and beyond when protecting your weaponry. If anyone gets shot with your weaponry then questions will be asked such as why did you leave weapons around untrained and unqualified persons? Why did you not put the ammo into a seperate container? Why wasnt the weapon partially disassembled? etc...

If you leave weapons around children...remember children tend to get into secure containers rather easily...then you run a great risk of being criminally negligent if something should occur. Children tend to watch where you put keys and can memorize combinations easily enough.

I would never leave weapons around an untrained person or someone under 18 years old. When leaving my weapons behind, then I lock the ammo into a seperate container and hide it in another room...I partially disassemble the weapons when storing them in the safe so they cannot be readily used should someone get in there...the safe is located in a closet locked with a deadbolt. The firing pins are taken out and locked away/hidden in a seperate room.

If you dont go above and beyond, then if something happens...you might be held criminally responsible for the outcome...
JohnH1963 is offline  
Old March 10, 2010, 11:07 AM   #5
Lavid2002
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2007
Posts: 2,568
Dont do it. Theres a fine line between safety, protection, and paranoia. Giving someone who is untrained a firearm establishes neither safety or protection.... : |
__________________
Math>Grammar
Lavid2002 is offline  
Old March 10, 2010, 11:14 AM   #6
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 11,052
We're not talking about kids here, we're talking about grandparents. I really doubt you should have to worry about them playing with your guns while setting with grandkids.

If I didn't trust someone to be responsible around guns in the house, I sure as heck wouldnt trust them to care for my kids overnight.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old March 10, 2010, 11:29 AM   #7
Willie Lowman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2009
Location: Uh-Hi-O
Posts: 2,627
If they have at some point 50 years ago fired a gun but have not had contact with them sense, they will not think to get a gun when they should/could need one.

I have seen similar behavior in people at work. You take someone who is not used to having a large machine around they will pick up a heavy box or some water coolers and walk past an idling crane so they can pack them up three flights of stairs.

There are many counts where someone is carrying a concealed gun and never even thought to draw it when attacked because they didn't have the mindset to use it.
__________________
"9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly" --Sevens
Willie Lowman is offline  
Old March 10, 2010, 11:34 AM   #8
Edward429451
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2000
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 9,494
I disagree, you did good by showing them where it's at in case of emergency. It sure sounds logical and reasonable what's been said about training and so forth but what? deny them protection because no training? They have no protection if they have no training? Compared to what. Carlos Hathcock? Robbie Leatham? Balderdash. We all know that statistics show that the mere presence of a firearm is enough to turn away an attack. We all know that the 7 year old boy has shot the guy with the 22 rifle to save his mom.

Guns are the original point and click interface. Know how to use it? C'mon you guys. You don't have to be Sgt. York to get a BG off of you with a gun. Of course you should take them to the range! Of course it would be a plus to have training! But to get on here and say deny them because no training is very short sighted. Didn't the OP say they were not morons pretty much? This isn't here bubba hold mah beer and gimmee a gun...it's family security.

You guys should stand down a little and not get all 'I'm the only one professional enough...' (kind of how you sound)
Edward429451 is offline  
Old March 10, 2010, 11:41 AM   #9
Don P
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 5,982
Either train the caregiver or leave the gun with the kids. It amounts to the same thing. Other option is lock it up so all un-trained are safe
__________________
NRA Life Member, NRA Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA NROI Range Officer,
ICORE Range Officer,
,MAG 40 Graduate
As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.
Don P is offline  
Old March 10, 2010, 11:59 AM   #10
Uncle Ben
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 31, 2008
Location: Southern California
Posts: 400
Alright Edward! Lay it down
__________________
Lazy + Complacent = DISARMED
*FIGHT to keep your guns & join the NRA. Contact your representatives about 2A issues at www.capwiz.com/nra/dbq/officials and to be kept up to date on the current issues visit www.nraila.org
Uncle Ben is offline  
Old March 10, 2010, 12:33 PM   #11
Evan Thomas
Staff
 
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 5,629
Where is the gun stored now? Is it in a safe of some kind, and you're leaving your parents the key? You have more than one kid, apparently -- chances are that at least one of them is old enough to get into just about any hiding place, so if the gun isn't locked up or on your person when you are home, this already seems a bit dangerous.

I'm sure your parents are entirely trustworthy, but how hard would it be to take them to the range a couple of times and be sure that they know how to handle and use the gun? I'd much rather do that than have one of them decide to take the gun out to get more familiar with it, get distracted by a phone call or whatever, leave it out, and have one of the kids get hold of it. This kind of thing does happen -- even the most trustworthy people can make a mistake.

Besides -- it might be kind of fun to take your parents shooting, no?
__________________
Never let anything mechanical know you're in a hurry.
Evan Thomas is offline  
Old March 10, 2010, 01:31 PM   #12
Daugherty16
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 10, 2008
Location: Live Free or Die state
Posts: 259
Safety First, Safety Last

Would you leave the gun lying around for your kids to play with? Your parents are probably not as "on the spot" as caregivers as you and your wife are, at least that's true in my house. So unless it's locked in a safe or otherwise disabled, chances are higher that one of your children will access it than when you are home. Assumption on my part, but founded on knowledge of my kids and my parents. The "worst case" that could result would shatter your lives.

Now, i'm making another assumption - your Dad was in the service at some point and has hunted, you said. So guns are not foreign to him, but your Sig might be. Still there are countless cases of people with no training using a gun successfully. Point, pull, bang. But why take the chance? You said your Mom was receptive, maybe you need to hold a safety class for your parents and take them to the range.

General familiarity with firearms is no substitute to knowing exactly how a particular model works, and shooting isn't for the faint of heart either.

My vote: train them, or lock it up. Preference on training. Who knows? Maybe they'll get the bug and bring their own next time they come over.
__________________
"To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness... How pathetic." - - Ted Nugent

"Cogito, Ergo Armitum Sum" - (I Think, Therefore I Am Armed)- - anon.
Daugherty16 is offline  
Old March 10, 2010, 01:35 PM   #13
DRice.72
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 19, 2009
Location: Western North Carolina
Posts: 451
Quote:
Take'm to the range
+1 to that.
__________________
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
Light is faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright unitl you hear them speak!
They should have stopped with "Congress shall make no Law...
DRice.72 is offline  
Old March 10, 2010, 01:54 PM   #14
BillCA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Location: Silicon Valley, Ca
Posts: 7,117
After he left the Air Force, my father fired his .38 once, while showing my mom how to shoot it. All very basic stuff. And while it was just an old Victory Model .38, I'm sure my dad could have employed it at any time over the next 35 years without remedial training.

Semi-autos are a little different, but not much if you apply a little forethought. Gun + Magazine, empty chamber, safety off. Two step process to ready gun. Insert magazine, pull slide back and let go.

It would certainly be better -- and more fun -- to treat them to a day at an outdoor range (fresh air, sunshine, the smell of gunpowder) and let them get a feel for the gun. You can also evaluate whether it works well for them too. As always, focus on safety, trigger discipline and putting the gun on safe (decocking).

Set a new rule - when grandparents child-sit, the master bedroom door is closed and children are not allowed inside. No reason to go there. Grandparents are generally good about watching kids in my experience. So that should minimize the home safety issue.
__________________
BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)
BillCA is offline  
Old March 10, 2010, 02:48 PM   #15
Lee Lapin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2004
Location: SE NC
Posts: 1,239
Have Mom or Dad used a revolver in the past? If so I'd spend a few $$$ and lay in something they're familiar with, myself, if I didn't already have some in the safe. And a day at the range with something already familiar would go further than having to learn something new from scratch, IF they've used revolvers before.

I'm partial to round butt K frames for 'non gun people' to learn on myself, and the DAO conversion isn't a problem far as I'm concerned.

http://www.jgsales.com/index.php/smi...ath/16_211_431

jmho, of course ymmv.

lpl
__________________
Mindset - Skillset - Toolset. In that order!

Attitude and skill will get you through times of no gear, better than gear will get you through times of no attitude and no skill.

Last edited by Lee Lapin; March 10, 2010 at 02:56 PM.
Lee Lapin is offline  
Old March 10, 2010, 03:07 PM   #16
cwok
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 12, 2010
Posts: 316
Opinion

I'd feel uncomfortable with someone around guns who did not know:

* How to check if a revolver is loaded.
(I'd skip the cylinder rotation being clockwise or cournter clockwise).

* Know the difference between pulling the trigger and first cocking hamer and then pulling the trigger.
(I'd skip the squuuuuuuuueze the trigger stuff).

* Know how to put safety On/Off for a seimi-auto.

* Know how to Pull the slide back and, if equipped, lock it back.

* Know they have to pull the magazine first to empty a weapon.

* Know bullets don't stop and fall to the ground if the miss the intended target.

* Know -- Don't point at anything ...... All guns are loaded until you ....


Actually thats quite a bit of training.
It can all be accomplished in minutes and does not requaire a trip to the range.

Granted if five Ninja-Commandos attack them, it won't be enough, but on the other hand it might be enough if there were only two or three.
.
cwok is offline  
Old March 10, 2010, 03:16 PM   #17
tacticalj
Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2010
Location: Kansas
Posts: 35
I would say, imphatically, that someone with a gun that does not know how to operate and shoot accurately is more a danger to you/their loved ones and the rest of your neighborhood, then someone who at least knows how to put combat effective hits on target.

Picture this, someone would be scumbag breaks into your home, while your away. Your mother gets the sig and ends up discharging it. The rounds don't hit the target. Where do they go? Where are your children in retrospect to your mothers firing location? How about the neighbors, if she does not think of whats beyond her target?

Or, what if she simply cannot pull the trigger on another human being? She know has a deadly weapon that she is not willing to use in self-defense. What would prevent the attacker from taking the weapon and at that point, killing your family, or worse, maybe he goes down the street and shoots somebody else with your gun. Leaving it lay when it is empty. That's going to get you into court if nothing else.

Properly train your parents and your children in fire arms safety. Have a plan for all your loved ones where they know what to do in this and any other case. I work nights as LEO and have gone over a plan with my wife on what to and not to do if somebody was to come into our house when I was not there. I have also made a plan for what to and not to do when I am home.

You do not want your mother or family hurt. Your children need to know to stay put if something happens, because you also do not want them to come running out and get hurt or shot by mistake, let alone seeing somebody that was just shot and killed in their house!

That's some of my .02$
__________________
Bravery doesn't mean you are not scared...it means you go anyways. Thank you to all our veterans!
tacticalj is offline  
Old March 10, 2010, 04:05 PM   #18
thawntex
Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2008
Posts: 84
Thanks for the replies. I think we can all agree that a family trip to the range is in order, as well as further discussions regarding the rules of firearm safety. I also agree that it's not enough to explain the mechanics of the P226. They need hands-on experience.

I only leave the gun accessible to my wife and parents. For all other babysitters, I secure it in a lock box fastened to a high shelf in the master bedroom closet. The keys come with me.

Some have suggested that my children might somehow gain access to the gun while within the care of my parents. Please give us a little more credit than that. I trust my folks to keep their grandchildren from playing in the street, strangling themselves in the mini blinds, or setting the house on fire. I most certainly trust them to keep the kids from going into my bedroom and tampering with the pistol safe.

For what it's worth, my parents are relatively young (58 and 60). They are of sound mind, and outstanding physical condition. When they come over, they actively play with the kids and supervise them closely. They do not send the kids out into the yard whilst vegging out in front of Matlock.

Certain posters have raised excellent points, and I hope the discussion continues.

Last edited by thawntex; March 10, 2010 at 04:11 PM. Reason: clarification
thawntex is offline  
Old March 10, 2010, 04:07 PM   #19
waterfowler
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 31, 2010
Posts: 115
NEVER trust anyone. I have learned the hard way a few times. Trust no one but yourself.
__________________
If guns are outlawed, only the outlaws will have guns
waterfowler is offline  
Old March 10, 2010, 04:52 PM   #20
bababooey32
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 19, 2009
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 161
Quote:
Your parents are probably not as "on the spot" as caregivers as you and your wife are,
Huh? You survived, right? Then they must havedone something right!
bababooey32 is offline  
Old March 10, 2010, 04:56 PM   #21
markj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 27, 2005
Location: Crescent Iowa
Posts: 2,971
I see articles all the time about grannys and accidental discharges....


Get a .22 and teach them how to use it. Lock up the pistol until they are comfy with a shooter.



Disassemble? Kinda made me smile when I read that...
markj is offline  
Old March 10, 2010, 04:59 PM   #22
bababooey32
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 19, 2009
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 161
This:
Quote:
You do not want your mother or family hurt.
and this:

Quote:
Picture this, someone would be scumbag breaks into your home, while your away.
and yet this?

Quote:
someone with a gun that does not know how to operate and shoot accurately is more a danger to you/their loved ones
Just so I'm clear:

1) We don't want mom hurt...

2) A BG busts in the house...

3) We DON'T want mom to be able to defend herself, because she might not "put combat effective hits on target"?

Am I to assume that only Tommy Tacticool can "put combat effective hits on target"?

What is the minimum threshold of "tactical sophistication" one must have to earn the right to use a gun in self defense? This is awfully close to the rationale given for state mandated training in order to defend myself with a firearm.

I don't like it.
bababooey32 is offline  
Old March 10, 2010, 05:03 PM   #23
JohnH1963
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 22, 2008
Posts: 416
I have seen kids do some ingenious things like solve the rubik's cube or somehow find all these flaws in a networked video game so they can cheat...kids are very observant. Even though your parents are watchful and careful with the children, I can still imagine a scenario where they get around your parents at some point and tamper with the pistol safe. I also would not put it past the kids to find a way into a locked pistol safe...hey they can crack these complex video games and solve the cube so why can't they find a way into the safe?

Knowing what I know about children, I would not trust the safe as absolute security and go further then what seems reasonable such as taking away key parts of the weapon and storing it in a seperate room hidden away. I would also keep the ammo and the weapons separate and put the safe in a locked deadbolted closet for further security...
JohnH1963 is offline  
Old March 10, 2010, 05:07 PM   #24
teeroux
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2006
Posts: 1,512
Quote:
Yes, you are doing the wrong thing. If there are non-trained persons or persons that have not been shooting within the last year, then the firearms should be disassembled and securely locked in a steel container with the ammo hidden and locked in a seperate container.
Quote:
If you dont go above and beyond, then if something happens...you might be held criminally responsible for the outcome...

These lines of thought are part of the problem.

Children are one thing but adults are responsible for all of their own actions. Not yourself. If a person was shopping at a Sams and saw a forklift with keys in it jumped on it an knocked down a whole row of merchandise. Who do you think would be at fault the store or the idiot customer? Any adult knows a firearm can be dangerous and has the comprehension to know if they don't know how to handle one to leave it alone just like any other dangerous piece of equipment or tool.IMHO
teeroux is offline  
Old March 10, 2010, 05:40 PM   #25
Uncle Ben
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 31, 2008
Location: Southern California
Posts: 400
Some of these comments are making we wonder...

Why even have a gun in the house at all if it's going to be unloaded, locked up, no ammo present with it, etc.? By the time you get the gun out, get to the ammo, and finally load it, the bad guy could have killed you several times over. You'd better hope he makes an appointment first so you can be ready in advance.

I also have to disagree with comments made about the level of training needed before someone should be allowed to use a firearm in self-defense. Sure, take them to the range, but lets not take this concept too far.


Our constitution does not say, "The right of the exceptionally well-trained people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"

I will never agree that an elderly man or woman should not attempt to defend themselves (or loved ones) with a firearm...quite the contrary.

Last edited by Uncle Ben; March 10, 2010 at 06:26 PM.
Uncle Ben is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11590 seconds with 8 queries