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Old March 7, 2010, 07:30 PM   #26
Lawyer Daggit
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Lucky none of the shots were to centre of mass.
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Old March 7, 2010, 11:43 PM   #27
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Who says any of it is really true to begin with? I am sorry i am skeptical of such reports but i have researched a few and there is often more to the story than what is reported. For all we know he was shot with a .22. I heard of one story of a guy who took 7 shots COM from a .45 with 230grn HP ammo and lived. x-rays were there to back up the story, Found out later the x-rays were done at his autopsy. He dropped right on the spot.
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Old March 8, 2010, 08:21 AM   #28
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Who says any of it is really true to begin with? I am sorry i am skeptical of such reports but i have researched a few and there is often more to the story than what is reported.
You don't know how to use Google?

Contrary to the through and through theory of dividing the holes by 2, Guzman says that he was hit by 16 bullets, though the account says he was shot 19 times.
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?se...cal&id=6051484

Contrary to the drawing, Guzman apparently wasn't svelt. He was 6XL. This article has him shot injured 16 times with some being exits.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_c...bell_case.html

His pic can be found here...
http://www.assatashakur.org/forum/pr...om-sunday.html
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Old March 8, 2010, 04:16 PM   #29
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Another thing to consider is that Guzman was in a car when he was being shot so probably a lot of the rounds probably weren't as effective as they would've been because they had to penetrate the car first before striking him.
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Old March 11, 2010, 07:42 PM   #30
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fact is, none of the bullets hit anything major enough to kill him. It could have been a .44 magnum, and unless there was some hydrostatic damage to his vitals the outcome would be the same, except maybe for the shot in his face. A 44 might have blown his jaw off.
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Old March 12, 2010, 03:27 AM   #31
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Originally posted by Mr Davis

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And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why we shoot center mass.
They may well have. The report said the individuals were in an automobile when hit by gunfire, right? When bullets travel from the outside of a car windshield towards the inside, they deflect down. The degree of this deflection is largely dependent on the weight and the velocity of the bullet -- a slow, heavy .45 will deflect much less than a fast, light 9mm. The box of truth guys demonstrate all this here.

I don't have a handy link, but I remember a dashcam video in which a police officer rolled towards a suspect at the end of a pursuit and received a half dozen shots to the windshield, many directly in front of his face. All the shots hit his vest. Same problem. Return fire went wild over the suspect's head (deflected in the opposite direction).
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Old March 12, 2010, 10:52 AM   #32
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I don't have a handy link, but I remember a dashcam video in which a police officer rolled towards a suspect at the end of a pursuit and received a half dozen shots to the windshield, many directly in front of his face. All the shots hit his vest. Same problem. Return fire went wild over the suspect's head (deflected in the opposite direction).
Wow, there is a dashcam video that captures the aim/trajectory of the suspect's gun in front of the car and also the position of the officer's face inside the car?
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Old March 12, 2010, 11:25 AM   #33
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It picked up the suspect firing from about three meters beyond the hood of the car. The associated news article said the officer escaped without hospitalization. Why does my reading between the lines matter to you more than the point I was making? I did provide a link. With big, shiny pictures!
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Old March 12, 2010, 11:36 AM   #34
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tkopp,

That would square with my own observations from shooting through the windshield of a car during a class at ITI in Texas.

Rule of thumb: from outside the car, the windshield deflects rounds downward from the point of aim. If you aim at the driver's head through the windshield from outside the car, you will likely hit him in the chest. But from inside the car, the windshield deflects rounds upward from the point of aim. From inside the car, if you aim at the outside assailant's pelvis through the windshield, you will likely hit him in the chest. From inside the car, shooting through the windshield at an assailant, if you aim at his chest, you might hit his head, but you will more likely miss over his head.

Very cool to see in person, and while I don't anticipate ever needing to shoot through a windshield, I think it is useful intformation to have internalized -- just in case.

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Old March 12, 2010, 04:14 PM   #35
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I dont think the question is how did Mr. Bell survive 19 shots or how many shots it would have taken to kill Mr. Bell...the question is how many shots did it take to stop Mr. Bell.

I honestly think the majority of people out there would be stopped by 1 shot to anywhere in the body because most would be too afraid to keep resisting in fear you might give them another pop. Also, a shot to anywhere on the body would probably significantly slow a person down if not stop. How many people are going to be running at full speed with a bullet in the leg? If someone is charging at me and I pop em 2-3 times before they get to me, I dont think they will have the same power before then after...

Most of these threads are really about killing the person, but it should be about stopping the person. Killing someone will get you into trouble either civally or criminally or both. We shouldnt be focused on that at all. I did not study this situation, but I can tell you with confidence Mr. Bell was probably sufficiently stopped with 19 shots to the body...
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Old March 12, 2010, 05:16 PM   #36
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Why does my reading between the lines matter to you more than the point I was making? I did provide a link. With big, shiny pictures!
Because your reading between the lines was stated as a fact and what you stated was unrealistic. Since dash cams usually do not show the occupants of the vehicle in which the cam was mounted, then you have no idea where the officer's face was when his windshield was being shot. For all we know, the officer was leaned over to avoid the onslaught and the suspect was simply pumping rounds into the the windshield in the area of where the driver would be located.

Making points is good and the Box o Truth does have big shiny pictures, but no big shiny pictures of the example you provided.

Points not considered, but if several shots had been through the area where the officer's face might have been, then later shots should not have been deflected nearly as much due to the damage incurred by preceding shots in or around the same spot.

While all this is hueristically interesting, it would appear that a large quantity of the bullets being fired at Sean Bell's vehicle were not through the windshield and so the issue of windshield deflection causing the officers to miss center mass may not be that relevant. In fact, the windshield looks pretty good for a car that had 50 rounds fired into it. The rear window and side windows are gone, but the windshield just has a bit of cracking, but otherwise looks pretty good.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...OIGXtgeDpqydAQ
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Old March 12, 2010, 09:52 PM   #37
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Didn't they find the officers not guilty?
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Old March 12, 2010, 10:46 PM   #38
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Didn't they find the officers not guilty?

Yes, I think they did. The car was moving towards officers and was considered a weapon. I think a Federal case maybe in the works against them.

No one knows how many rounds went through the doors, seats, hood, etc... I don't think ALL the bullets could only come from the front of the car and through the windshield.

Lets not forget police don't use super charged rounds in their weapons 9mm, .40 or anything else. And with good reason.
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Old March 12, 2010, 10:54 PM   #39
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We want the cops to be there for us but when they do their jobs they get punished? I guess only in America. Were they supposed to let the guy run them over or what? I remember the media was making a big thing about his wedding that was supposed to happen the next day or so. While I am weary of authority, we do pay and ask the police to do a job and when they do that job we should no punish them.


What kind of a moron thinks it's OK to charge a cop with a car and not expect to have something bad happen, he deserved to die.
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Old March 13, 2010, 01:50 AM   #40
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Quote:
Rule of thumb: from outside the car, the windshield deflects rounds downward from the point of aim. If you aim at the driver's head through the windshield from outside the car, you will likely hit him in the chest. But from inside the car, the windshield deflects rounds upward from the point of aim. From inside the car, if you aim at the outside assailant's pelvis through the windshield, you will likely hit him in the chest. From inside the car, shooting through the windshield at an assailant, if you aim at his chest, you might hit his head, but you will more likely miss over his head.
Question: Windshields are laminated glass. Do the same rules apply when shooting through side windows or rear glass, which are tempered glass?
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Old March 13, 2010, 12:37 PM   #41
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Quote:
Quote:
Rule of thumb: from outside the car, the windshield deflects rounds downward from the point of aim. If you aim at the driver's head through the windshield from outside the car, you will likely hit him in the chest. But from inside the car, the windshield deflects rounds upward from the point of aim. From inside the car, if you aim at the outside assailant's pelvis through the windshield, you will likely hit him in the chest. From inside the car, shooting through the windshield at an assailant, if you aim at his chest, you might hit his head, but you will more likely miss over his head.

Question: Windshields are laminated glass. Do the same rules apply when shooting through side windows or rear glass, which are tempered glass?
The main cause of bullet deflection through a windshield is because of the angle of the glass. Side windows have less of an effect obviously because of their lesser angle in relation to where the shooter is standing. Windshield glass will obviously be tougher to get through because of the lamination but this will likely have more of an effect of causing the hollow point to collapse upon itself.

Last edited by jbrown50; March 13, 2010 at 12:47 PM.
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Old March 13, 2010, 12:50 PM   #42
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Not his day...

Just another 2 cents... Center of mass doesn't always do it either.

Case study:
Unarmed victim, double tapped "center of mass" at 5 feet with a .45 ACP.
One bullet went UNDER the sternum and came out the other side (ouch).
The other bullet remained in the rib cage, yet damaged nothing "beyond repair".

The victim was able to run from the gunner, and was conscious sitting on the curb at the scene when LE arrived.
He left the hospital 2 days later, very sore but doing well.

My thoughts on all of this is that the human body is amazing.
It was just NOT his day... to die.

I try not to join in caliber debates, cause you just never can tell.
I just advise people...
Constant training, center of mass, with the biggest caliber you can carry, and pray that you never have to apply any of the training.

Just my thoughts.
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Old March 13, 2010, 01:53 PM   #43
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Quote:
Question: Windshields are laminated glass. Do the same rules apply when shooting through side windows or rear glass, which are tempered glass?
Yes and no, but not exactly. Even regular window glass can cause deflection to a certain extent. The angle of incidence, that is, the angle the bullet impacts the tempered glass will have a lot more to do with deflection, even if the deflection isn't as much. Bullets will tend to punch through tempered glass much more so than window glass. Also, since the whole window tends to either fall away or prefragment, followup shots through tempered glass are not as affected as much and not all all if the window is gone.

Quote:
Just another 2 cents... Center of mass doesn't always do it either.
Of course not and nobody was saying it did. Center mass shots simply tend to produce more significant results than peripheral shots.
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Old March 13, 2010, 10:16 PM   #44
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IDAHO83501,

Did you forget about the guy who was shot 27 times with .40 bullets? http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=194853.
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Old March 13, 2010, 10:37 PM   #45
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You know i just dont buy into the the hit him 15 times in the chest with a .45 and he lived stories. There was the one story where a female cop was shot in the heart with a .357 and lived. come to find out it was a bullet fragment . Just a little difference there!!! I have heard many stories of deer that got hit several times in the vitals only to find out later when we recovered the deer not one bullet hit vitals and were gut shots.
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Old March 13, 2010, 11:01 PM   #46
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Wether it was a good shoot or not (which I think it was) Whether the guy was a DB or not I think the trauma team that worked on him is a bunch of rockstars. The simple fact that there was fecal matter in the abdomen should have (and probably did) cause huge problems. After almost 14 years in Ems and working with one of the best Trauma teams in the country (Detroit Receiving) they still amaze me and watching them when I bring in a critical patient pushes me professionally to be my best.
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Old March 20, 2010, 09:46 PM   #47
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NYPD uses 124gr. +P Golddots. They work well for them. That said, with adequate penetration, shot placement makes a projectile lethal.
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Old March 21, 2010, 04:15 AM   #48
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Did you forget about the guy who was shot 27 times with .40 bullets?
Or was it 40 times with .27 bullets????
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Old March 22, 2010, 08:55 PM   #49
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The guy had 19 wounds but only 7 bullets were found in the body. That means there were 6 through and though shots to account for the extra 12 wounds. Therefore he was shot 13 times.
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Old March 23, 2010, 08:51 AM   #50
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Moderator Note

Deleted one.

To repeat:

Look, if you want to have a caliber war thread, go do it down in one of the Handgun forums. Not here.

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