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Old May 28, 2005, 03:40 PM   #76
Eghad
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I just finished the CHL course for Texas which was done by a local Sheriffs Dept.

The instructor who is a law enforcment officer gave us some very simple criteria for deciding to draw your pistol.

If he felt his life or another persons life was in immediate danger

he said all he would do is say STOP!

and that the trigger would be pulled as soon as stop was said

and his comment to us

is that the bullet you fire has your name on it once it leaves the barrel......and hits someone
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Old May 28, 2005, 06:23 PM   #77
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Old May 29, 2005, 05:46 AM   #78
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Make it simple for your assailant: Stop or you drop.
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Old May 29, 2005, 06:37 AM   #79
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Halt

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Old May 29, 2005, 09:27 AM   #80
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Mas Ayoob recommends "DON'T MOVE" - it's easier to bellow that at the top of your lungs than "stop or you drop!" and has more of a plosive character than "freeeeze."
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Old May 29, 2005, 12:56 PM   #81
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Unless the BG has suicided or placed himself in surrender, he is still a threat. Belt buckle to belt buckle just makes it harder to miss and easier to ensure no bystanders will be hit.

If there is any time available you need it to set up that difficult shot imposed by the crowded mall not to let Mr/Ms BG know that there is opposition.

As for the law after the shooting, I ask the same question asked of all the what if folks, show me where it has been an issue at trial. Dig me up some case law.
The judge will not care what you shot him with, or how, only if there was justification in the first place. Once Mr/Ms BG made themselves a legal target everything else is just mental adjectives. Whether or not they die or how has no relevance on the proceedings, only your origonal justification to shoot. They remain a legal target until they surrender or die, and if he/she surrenders I'll at least bludgeon him/her into a pool of ketchup making sure they stay surrendered.

Carriers had better be aware of the dimensional aspects of the target.
I regularly practice on 3 dimensional reactive targets with obscured vital zones. It does make a difference and armed individuals should be aware of the limitations. It is a very common fault of trainers to fail to teach anatomy and three dimensional targeting.

Sam

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Old May 29, 2005, 01:17 PM   #82
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Excellent point.

SamD makes an excellent point. I recently had a chance to practice on 3d reactive humanoid targets in the Leschi Town "shoot house" on Ft. Lewis. Granted it was with an M16, not a pistol, but the principles are the same. Many of the targets I shot would have been scored well had they been shilouettes (based on the entry points), but many were scored "no kill" and some even "no stop".

Knowing the vital areas of your target makes all the difference in the world, civilian or military.
No tactical idea or internet post will ever take the place of good hands on training.

Back on topic though: I try to always de-escalate situations verbally, so if it comes to the point that I have drawn the gun the only noise will be bang. I guess it goes back the the old school "don't draw unless you mean to use it" adage. I have never had to draw, but have been in a few situations where I might have had too, had the verbal tactics not worked.
One other non-verbal method that kept me from drawing and shooting was to set off my car alarm. After trying everything from casually talking to shouting "stop and go away", the BG continued to approach (this was a gas station parking lot at about 11pm, BTW) so I used the remote on my keychain to set off my car alarm (about three parking spaces away from me).
This got the store clerks attention and the BG ran away as the clerk came outside.
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Old May 29, 2005, 01:31 PM   #83
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As for the law after the shooting, I ask the same question asked of all the what if folks, show me where it has been an issue at trial. Dig me up some case law.
As far as I know, no one has brought up the legal aspect of justifying shooting the BG.
There have been questions raised as to the possible moral, tactical, or practical aspect of shouting a warning and if there should be training to do so. Personally, I did bring up the moral obligations of injuring a bystander and whether a warning yell would be something trained for when the BG does not have a gun.
I am sure there are more than a few cases where an innocent bystander was injured and the samaritan shoooter was indicted.
I asked whether it would be a good idea to train to yell a warning in a situation where a knife or other close range weapon was used by the bad guy when there were innocent bystanders around (or when surrounded by explosives in a dynamite store).

Quote from Sam D
Quote:
You can what if and what if and what if till the end of eternity and never get anywhere. Shoot the BG till they are not capable of being a threat and get on with living.
Isn't asking "what if and what if" is exactly how they came up with what they teach/train what to do in these situations in the first place? Or is the current methods used so perfect that there is no reason to ask "what if" anymore? If you say it is common sense, then I guess all questions can be answered as such and there would be no reason for training of any kind.
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Old May 29, 2005, 08:45 PM   #84
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novus,
The what ifs are indeed whay we have training. An endless series of what ifs lead to endless time in the decision cycle, leads to BG having his way. There is a point of diminishing returns to the what if's, and some of the what ifs people are using are pretty silly.

Certainly you should exercise caution, but if we get worrying about whether a headshot overpenetrates, breaks an aquarium and are they going to sue me if someone slips on a goldfish and breaks their tailbone, we have exceeded the time allowed.
Prioritize the threats and do it fast. And don't waste time worrying about low percentage outcomes. Otherwise someone is going to die! When I say do it fast I mean milliseconds. Decide to shoot, plan your shot,(impact point, bystanders, backstop) draw and fire as the front sight steadies. If you have to move to clear bystanders, move, if you need crowd clearance, take a knee and shoot up through the BGs head from below, if you have to knock granny on her butt to clear a lane do it, but for God's sake don't tell the world that you are doing it and don't slow down to worry about winging a can of hairspray or a hidden box of blasting caps in the managers desk 2 stores down or making some kids ears ring for a day, those are not what ifs, that my friend is chickencrap. Low percentage outcome.

If you have any extra time you use it to set up a clean shot, not to inventory the next store over for propane tanks. I really like that dynamite one, anyone been shopping in a "dynamite store"? Too much silly season stuff going on in folks minds.

I can see a point in time when we will be worrying about "what if I hit a can of Raid and it kills some bugs, are the Earth Firsters gonna target my family"?

Sam
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Old May 29, 2005, 09:04 PM   #85
novus collectus
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Certainly you should exercise caution, but if we get worrying about whether a headshot overpenetrates, breaks an aquarium and are they going to sue me if someone slips on a goldfish and breaks their tailbone, we have exceeded the time allowed. Prioritize the threats and do it fast. And don't waste time worrying about low percentage outcomes. Otherwise someone will die!
Slips on a goldfish LOL .

I have never taking training or even known someone who has (other than LEO) because of the state I live in doesn't issue permits often. I guess I was asking the "what ifs" as if I was taking the class for the first time. I didn't mention this before, but the 3D practice you mentioned sounds like something that we all might want to do if we carry.

(P.S. I found out from Mdshooters.com forum that I can get a concealed carry permit in the neighbouring state of Va and maybe even Florida too. So I may have the opportunity to take a class after all.)

Mark
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Old May 29, 2005, 09:12 PM   #86
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novus,
I highly encourage you to get a CCW. Don't know where in Md you live but you might look at moving to PA or VA and gettin out of there.

Sam

Always get all the training you can get. And the best you can afford.
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Old May 29, 2005, 09:31 PM   #87
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Thanks Sam D, but now that we have a pro-gun ownership governor, maybe I'll wait to see if I have to move in the future. Also, being a democrat, maybe I can change my state's democratic party from within, just enough.

(BTW, FWIW, the origional impetus for this thread was a couple of stories that happened in Md. Doesn't mean much other than the fact that the confusion may have an origin that can be explained.)
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Old May 31, 2005, 03:02 PM   #88
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There are lots of ways you can go with this. These are the funniest and most likely to get you on the news.

There's the Dirty Harry:
YOU FEEL LUCKY, PUNK!?

Or the Texan:
REMEMBER THE ALAMO!

Or the South Park:
MY GOD! HE'S COMMIN RIGHT FOR US!

Or the Tony Montana:
SAY HELLO TO MY LITTLE FRIEND!

Or the Samuel L. Jackson
WHAT DOES MARCELLUS WALLACE LOOK LIKE!?

Or the perfectionist:
Wait, you're about 13 yards away, would you mind backing up six feet?

Or the Casablanca:
Here's looking at you, kid.

Or the OTHER Casablanca:
We'll always have Paris.

Or the Psycho:
We all go a little mad sometimes... Haven't you?

Or the Butch and Sundance:
Good, for a moment there, I thought we were in trouble.

Or the Deliverance:
You sure do got a purty mouth, boy.

Or the Princess Bride:
Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father, prepare to die.
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Old May 31, 2005, 03:18 PM   #89
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'The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides with the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who in the name of charity and good will shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon those with great vengeance and with furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know that my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.'
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Old May 31, 2005, 04:30 PM   #90
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"Someone call an AMBULANCE! This man's been SHOT!"

And remember, "Anybody worth shootin' is worth shootin' twice!"

Put that in yer pipe and smoke it!

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Old May 31, 2005, 07:13 PM   #91
novus collectus
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Quote:
"Someone call an AMBULANCE! This man's been SHOT!"
Hilarious!!! LOL
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Old June 9, 2005, 08:48 PM   #92
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The guy who was breaking into my mother in law's house had me yell "oi you wanker!" Not the usual call out I guess.
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Old June 10, 2005, 07:40 PM   #93
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Topthis - I try to do my version of an Apache War Cry...which really freaks them out, because I am Korean!!
LOL Priceless!
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Old June 10, 2005, 08:45 PM   #94
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Quote:
There are lots of ways you can go with this. These are the funniest and most likely to get you on the news.

There's the Dirty Harry:
YOU FEEL LUCKY, PUNK!?

Or the Texan:
REMEMBER THE ALAMO!

Or the South Park:
MY GOD! HE'S COMMIN RIGHT FOR US!

Or the Tony Montana:
SAY HELLO TO MY LITTLE FRIEND!

Or the Samuel L. Jackson
WHAT DOES MARCELLUS WALLACE LOOK LIKE!?

Or the perfectionist:
Wait, you're about 13 yards away, would you mind backing up six feet?

Or the Casablanca:
Here's looking at you, kid.

Or the OTHER Casablanca:
We'll always have Paris.

Or the Psycho:
We all go a little mad sometimes... Haven't you?

Or the Butch and Sundance:
Good, for a moment there, I thought we were in trouble.

Or the Deliverance:
You sure do got a purty mouth, boy.

Or the Princess Bride:
Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father, prepare to die.
You forgot
The Sixth Sense:
"I see dead people."

The Stiffmeister:
‘Happy "#$%^ Day", @$* Mouth.’

The Goodfella:
"Hey, what are you doing here, I thought I told you to go $%*& your mother."

The John McClane:
"Yippee-Kye-Ay Mother $%^&$#"
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Old June 10, 2005, 08:48 PM   #95
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If's he got a gun and its pointed at me, not going to waste time.. its down to either him or I at this point, and I won't finish 2nd.

If its a knife, it would be something on the lines of "Back up and drop the weapon", if he keeps advancing, quick shots taken in groups of 2-3 until he stops coming at me, or I run out of bullets.

If I'm being rushed, again, not going to bother with a warning if some crazy is coming at me with a knife at full speed and my piece is drawn.
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Old June 12, 2005, 09:59 PM   #96
powderedonuts
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Well since it is a mall..... I would yell..........

SHOP TILL YOU DROP B!4+CH!!!

As I pull out dual glocks, unloading full mags while holding them sideways.


Just kidding......... I cant buy handguns yet...........

(You are all thinking "THANK GOD!!")
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Old June 14, 2005, 08:50 AM   #97
big daddy 9mm
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well.......

do you have any gum! preferably big red
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Old June 15, 2005, 08:59 PM   #98
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"Excuuuuse me while I whip dis out."
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Old June 15, 2005, 09:17 PM   #99
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"Are you talking to me?" Taxi
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Old June 15, 2005, 09:26 PM   #100
sm
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Re: Johnny Guest's post #21

I agree with his post. I have asked in a very firm voice " I need to see your hands NOW!

Last time the person approaching took off in a dead run. LEO caught up with him, seems his picture matched the video taken at other gas stations. I never made a move toward my CCW...but I had let go of the gas pump handle.
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