The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old August 22, 2019, 09:20 AM   #101
Don Fischer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2017
Posts: 1,469
While in Europe my unit had 1911's I didn't care for them. I think the newer Breatta's are better weapons for what they are used for. The intended use is a military assault weapon. They certainly do stop the bad guy but don't carry near enough ammo in my opinion. About the time you get to shooting, you have to stop and reload. They are pretty heavy also but for the military, it doesn't really matter that much depending on how many mags you need to carry. I'm not sure anything can make them miss fire. Run over one with a tank and pick it up, still shoot's. But for military use, low round count turns me off. That is all in a combat setting. Great gun that doesn't carry enough ammo. In a self defense situation, I certainly don't care for it myself. There I can live with only eight rounds but the thing is huge and heavy. When I'm out and about I sometime's carry my P 89 Ruger. Longer barrel and 15rd mag but that comes at a price. The price is extra weight, larger size and bit more than I really am comfortable hiding. I am consistently aware of it when I wear it. At the same time I barely notice my Shield 9c and it disappear's under a light shirt. I see the 1911 as an assault type weapon that simply doesn't carry enough ammo, to much time lost reloading.
Don Fischer is offline  
Old August 22, 2019, 09:44 AM   #102
Hammerhead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2004
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,258
For me (arthritic 59 year old) a 9mm 1911 pattern gun is something I can target shoot successfully.
The low recoil, high mechanical accuracy and superior trigger make it my most accurate shooting pistol.
Did some very satisfying target shooting yesterday at 50 and 100 yards, ringing the 8" plates. Never shot that well with a Beretta or Sig, even in my shooting prime.
Hammerhead is offline  
Old August 22, 2019, 12:53 PM   #103
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 20,126
Quote:
The intended use is a military assault weapon.
The military doesn't consider the handgun to be combat weapon. Any handgun, and they haven't, about since repeating rifles were adopted.

oh, the handgun IS a weapon, and it does get used in combat, but at best its considered an alternate or substitute for a "real weapon".

We developed the .30 Carbine intending it to be a replacement for the 1911A1s in the hands of most service troops. It ALSO wasn't considered to be a combat weapon. It proved to be a useful combat weapon, due to its light weight, high capacity compared to the standard rifle, and had sufficient power and accuracy for close range.

Somebody once said, "Pistols don't win battles, but they can save the life of the guy who does win the battle".

I can assure you the military does not consider the 1911A1 (or any other handgun) an "assault weapon". They do recognize there are situations where the handgun is the best tool for the job, and that's why they have them, but they don't consider them a combat weapon like a rife.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is online now  
Old August 22, 2019, 12:56 PM   #104
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 15,728
They did in 1917.
You need a pistol for trench raiding, handier than a bayoneted rifle, more reach than a club.
They were buying lots of pistols and revolvers in WWI.
Jim Watson is offline  
Old August 22, 2019, 01:00 PM   #105
Doyle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2007
Location: Starkville, MS
Posts: 6,997
To continue what 44 AMP said, there is an old military saying: "A pistol is used to fight your way back to where you shouldn't have left your rifle".
Doyle is online now  
Old August 22, 2019, 09:45 PM   #106
HisSoldier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 9, 2007
Location: Oregoncoast
Posts: 1,714
For me there are few things as satisfying as the KAWUMP! of a 1911 in .45 ACP. The 10 MM is a fantastic weapon, very useful, but for plinking and practice shooting the old slabside is wonderful for me.

I also love the way that heavy slug knocks things down.

Edit; my 10 MM is also a 1911 (DW Razorback), and I'm fitting up a 1911 in 10 MM longslide version.
__________________
CNC produced 416 stainless triggers to replace the plastic triggers on Colt Mustangs, Mustang Plus II's, MK IV Government .380's and Sig P238's and P938's. Plus Colt Mustang hardened 416 guide rods, and Llama .32 and .380 recoil spring buttons, checkered nicely and blued.

Last edited by HisSoldier; August 22, 2019 at 10:00 PM.
HisSoldier is offline  
Old August 22, 2019, 10:14 PM   #107
HisSoldier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 9, 2007
Location: Oregoncoast
Posts: 1,714
Quote:
one cannot buy a new Luger P08
Not trying to be pedantic here, "Luger" is the trade name belonging to Stoeger, but "Lugerman" is making high quality .45 ACP 1907 USA Army trials Luger replica's, which like new Corvettes are outside my budget.
Lord willing I'd love to shoot one someday, as I really like P-08's and own a few.
https://lugerman.com/luger-45/
__________________
CNC produced 416 stainless triggers to replace the plastic triggers on Colt Mustangs, Mustang Plus II's, MK IV Government .380's and Sig P238's and P938's. Plus Colt Mustang hardened 416 guide rods, and Llama .32 and .380 recoil spring buttons, checkered nicely and blued.
HisSoldier is offline  
Old August 22, 2019, 11:29 PM   #108
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 20,126
Quote:
one cannot buy a new Luger P08
No, you can't. The P.08 was German production and that essentially ended in 1942.

I bought a new Luger some years back. Brand new, in the box, unfired, STAINLESS STEEL and made in Texas!!

It is an actual Luger, with "Luger" and Stoeger's name on it. 9mm Luger, and a P.08 pattern pistol, but its not a P.08, its a Luger. I also have a couple of Lugers in .22LR. Stoeger made, and not a P.08 pattern gun, though there is a resemblance.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is online now  
Old August 23, 2019, 12:16 AM   #109
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 22,492
Quote:
No, you can't. The P.08 was German production and that essentially ended in 1942.
By that standard, are the modern guns sold today as 1911s really 1911s?
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old August 23, 2019, 02:20 AM   #110
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 20,126
Since "1911" isn't a registered trademark, I guess if the maker names it a 1911 then its 1911. That being said, it would properly be called a "S&W 1911" or whom ever the maker is.

The only "real" 1911s are those guns that were made, by Colt for government service prior to the introduction of the 1911A1.

Do note that Colt never sold a 1911 to any civilian. Nor did they sell 1911A1s. What Colt sold were Government Models, and were so marked.

Everything on the market today that we call 1911s are really 1911(A1 usually) pattern guns. Some are precise reproductions of the actual 1911 or A1 guns, most, are not.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is online now  
Old August 23, 2019, 03:49 AM   #111
74A95
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 26, 2016
Posts: 738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post
Clear-cut case of brain fade. I was thinking of .460 Rowland. Sorry.

https://ezine.m1911.org//WCHunter.htm

However ... reviewing the list I noticed that I also omitted the .17 Mach II. Kimber sold 1911s chambered for that round.
OMG! You guys forgot the 9X23 Winchester. Unforgivable!

And, while not a production gun, one can get conversion barrels for 7.62X25 Tokarev.

Jeez, I just realized you forgot the 40 S&W too.
74A95 is offline  
Old August 23, 2019, 06:50 AM   #112
Spats McGee
Staff
 
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 8,000
My 1911's holster has been staring at me for a week, just BEGGING me to carry it. Today, I just had to carry it. Welcome to Full Size Friday!
__________________
I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some.
Spats McGee is offline  
Old August 23, 2019, 07:56 AM   #113
P5 Guy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2005
Location: Tampa Bay
Posts: 1,799
Original Parabellum Pistol is what Mauser had to call their version of the P'08/Luger handgun because Stoeger owned that name as a trademark. The along came Mitchell Arms that made P'08/Luger handguns made from stainless steel.
P5 Guy is offline  
Old August 23, 2019, 01:04 PM   #114
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 20,126
Quote:
Original Parabellum Pistol is what Mauser had to call their version of the P'08/Luger handgun because Stoeger owned that name as a trademark.
You've got it slightly wrong, and backwards.


DWM named the pistol the "Parabellum". When, a few years later, the German Army adopted it, they named it the P.08 (Pistole 1908). Commercially it was the Parabellum, to the German Army, it was the P.08.

Some years after that, the US sales rep for DWM (I forget the fellow's name, but you can find it if you look enough) began promoting the Parabellum pistol as "the Luger" because he felt the name "Parabellum" was too foreign sounding for the American market. A deal was made with Stoeger, to market the pistols in the US, and Stoeger got the legal rights to the "Luger" name. Stoeger has KEPT the legal right to the Luger name, to this day. When Mauser did the run of (Swiss pattern) "Lugers" in the 70s, they called them Parabellums. Not Lugers. Mitchel called their reproduction the P.08, not the Luger, because Stoeger still owned the Luger name.

It was unlikely that the Kaiser would sue Mitchel for using P.08. It was likely that Stoeger would sue, if they called it a Luger.

There can be a lot of confusion between the popular name of a gun used in casual conversation, and the actual name of the gun, as marked on it.

About everyone but a few purists calls the civilian Colt .45acp pistol the "1911". But, its not. It is the "Government Model". Says so right on it. Doesn't say 1911 on it, anywhere. Pistols made for government contracts don't say "Government Model" on them, anywhere. They are marked 1911 or 1911A1.

If you really want to get into something that confuses most people, look at Ruger SAs. Ruger produced the Blackhawk until they replaced it with the New Model Blackhawk. The frames of the originals say "Blackhawk", the frames of the new model say "New Model Blackhawk". Everybody just calls them Blackhawks, and usually calls the originals "old models" or "3 screw" but that is just what is used in casual conversation.

Almost the same thing with the Vaquero. Original guns all say just "Vaquero". The gun Ruger replaced the Vaquero with is named the NEW VAQUERO, and that is what it says on the frame. Gets confusing when someone says "hey, I just got a new Vaquero!", and you have to figure out if they mean they just got a Vaquero, and its new to them, or if they actually got a NEW VAQUERO...
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is online now  
Old August 24, 2019, 02:34 AM   #115
silvermane_1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 6, 2011
Location: Burien,WA
Posts: 701
Quote:
Originally Posted by HisSoldier View Post
Not trying to be pedantic here, "Luger" is the trade name belonging to Stoeger, but "Lugerman" is making high quality .45 ACP 1907 USA Army trials Luger replica's, which like new Corvettes are outside my budget.
Lord willing I'd love to shoot one someday, as I really like P-08's and own a few.
https://lugerman.com/luger-45/
Yeah Lugerman's guns are running close to $8-10K+ for 45ACP.
__________________
Rugers:SR1911 CMD,MK 3 .22lr 6",Sec. Six '76 liberty .357 4",SRH .480 Ruger 7.5",Mini-14 188 5.56/.233 18.5", Marlins: 795 .22lr 16.5",30aw 30-30 20",Mossberg:Mav. 88 Tact. 12 ga, 18.5",ATR 100 .270 Win. 22",S&W:SW9VE
9mm 4",Springfield:XD .357sig 4", AKs:CAI PSL-54C, WASR 10/63, WW74,SLR-106c
silvermane_1 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10781 seconds with 10 queries