Training for Concealed Carry

gdeal · April 10, 2006, 07:22 PM

Hello,
I just go to the shooting range nothing more. I usually put a bull's eye target at 25 yards. I don't see the advantage of having it any shorter because it's about Shot Placement right? And if I can hit a target at 25 yards I would have no problem shooting at something ten yards away? Correct me if I am wrong. So my question is, what range in yards should I practice at?

CraigJS · April 10, 2006, 07:55 PM

Vary your distances, 3,7,11,20 yards what ever, a BG isn't going to just be at 25 yards. Shoot at 35, 40, 50 yards it's a good idea to learn what you and your pistol can do at as many different distances as possible.. It also can help you to estimate distances, and your reaction times/distances. Besides it's more FUN!

CWO4USCGRET · April 10, 2006, 11:01 PM

Marksmanship? Tactical shooting?

My agency's qualification course of fire is 30 rounds, starting at the 3.5 yard line and ending at the 15 yard line. I don't see much of a need to shoot beyond 15 yards in a work situation.

Why do you want to carry concealed is a question you need to ask. When you have that answer then you can tailor a training program to your needs.

CAPTAIN MIKE · April 10, 2006, 11:19 PM

Some time with your local IDPA chapter might be well spent. It is real-world, and while it is considerably less expensive than tactical training. However, if you can swing it it would be good to get some tactical training under your belt. We can all use more.

threegun · April 12, 2006, 08:47 AM

Capt. Mike, A+

TheBluesMan · April 12, 2006, 09:44 AM

I'll echo the recommendation to vary your distances. One yard away isn't too close, and 50 yards away isn't too far. Although, at the longer distances, I would question whether to engage or withdraw depending on the circumstances. Regardless, you should know the limitations and capabilities of both yourself and your sidearm.

I'd also recommend you try point shooting at 1-3 yard distances just to see the results. You should always use your sights when you can, but if you can't, you should know where your natural point of aim/point of impact is.

-Dave

M1911 · April 15, 2006, 02:12 PM

Quote:

I just go to the shooting range nothing more. I usually put a bull's eye target at 25 yards. I don't see the advantage of having it any shorter because it's about Shot Placement right? And if I can hit a target at 25 yards I would have no problem shooting at something ten yards away? Correct me if I am wrong. So my question is, what range in yards should I practice at?

Train as you fight, fight as you train. Do you think that if you get in a gunfight it will only be at 25 yards? No? So why are you only training at 25 yards?

I agree with TheBluesMan -- train from 1 yard to 50 yards. I suggest you concentrate from 25 feet in. The closer in you are the faster you can shoot and stay on target. If you only shoot at 25 yards, you will likely shoot far slower than necessary (and possibly than required) when in close.

zeroskillz · April 15, 2006, 03:13 PM

Even with what little experience I have, I would 2nd and 3rd what Capt. Mike suggested. I did alot of range practice at varying distances (and still do) and could put all my shots, save a few flyers, in a 5"-6" sized group at 25 yards (not great, but fine for COM). My first IDPA match, I completely missd the targets a bunch of times (those being roughly human torso sized targets

). From what I can tell, shooting under stress is completely different. It was a real eye opener for me. I've since gotten a bit better, and get less stressed at the start of each run at the matches. Not to mention I've been given great tips and help from the guys at the matches. All that for a $5 match fee, and my first match was free. Can't beat those prices for training. Even if you never do it again, try it once for the experience--your first one's free. Oh, another thing, it's a crapload of fun.
Thats my 2 cents.
-Zeke

threegun · April 16, 2006, 11:26 AM

Zero,

Quote:

My first IDPA match, I completely missed the targets a bunch of times (those being roughly human torso sized targets ). From what I can tell, shooting under stress is completely different. It was a real eye opener for me.

Most of us have experienced the same thing. Thats one of the reasons action pistol competitions are rated high on the list in preparation for a gunfight. Of course you have to combine the useful pistol work under stress with good tactics (learned and practiced elsewhere). One thing is for sure, you can't achieve the stress level brought on by competition anywhere, for less than 15 bucks. Heck only FoF comes close.

M1911,

Quote:

Train as you fight, fight as you train.

Amen. One should even go as far as changing target sizes, shapes, and positions. I try to place targets at angles with parts covered etc. to simulate movement and potential cover used by the bad guy.

Gdeal,

Quote:

I don't see the advantage of having it any shorter because it's about Shot Placement right? And if I can hit a target at 25 yards I would have no problem shooting at something ten yards away?

The advantage is simple, you will apply your range practiced skills to the gunfight. So when the bad guy is moving, blading his body, etc. you are going to suffer. It will be hard to locate kill zones of targets if different than what you practiced at the range. Your subconscious will be looking for that target you always use. At 25 yards speed shooting is not happening, so if the shootout happens at 3 yards you haven't practiced double tapping etc. Practice like you intend on fighting..........if you want to survive the shootout, standing tall and delivering well aimed shots probably won't help at 3 yards against someone shooting back. Think this thing out and change your practice to include more practical tactics, they will increase your odds.

Quote:

Correct me if I am wrong. So my question is, what range in yards should I practice at?

From so close you almost burn a hole in the target to as far as you can hit with your chosen gun. I tend to practice much more close up, from contact range to 10 yards or so. Longer ranges get much less practice (for me anyway).

Dave R · April 16, 2006, 08:32 PM

My BIL in the FBI taught me that getting the pistol unholstered and on target fast is the skill that will save your life, more than being able to shoot small groups at long distances.

So a good chunk of my practice time is spent on drawing from concealment and getting the first shot off quickly and accurately. I practice drawing from my IWB holster, and drawing my BUG from my pocket holster.

Most ranges won't let you do this--that's why IDPA is such a good idea. I also so this in my garage, using Speer's plastic training bullets. They are powered by primer only, but shoot close enough to point of aim at garage distances that any difference is negligible.

My draw-to-first-shot times and accuracy have improved a buch since I started practicing this.

SBrocker8 · April 17, 2006, 11:44 AM

Where can one find such plastic, primer fired bullets?

M1911 · April 21, 2006, 07:44 AM

Or just get an airsoft gun.

The British Soldier · April 21, 2006, 09:31 AM

There is wisdom in the statement - 'that getting the pistol unholstered and on target fast is the skill that will save your life, more than being able to shoot small groups at long distances.'

Like many I can happily shoot tight groups at whichever range necessary, but when movement is added to the equation many find that their tight groups are now expanded and I think that is a good thing. If your routine 1" grouping suddenly expands to 4" then don't worry too much, because rather than having one wound site you now have two! It may add to the effectiveness of what you are aiming to achieve rather than detract from it.

When learning to shoot a P226, transitioning from using a Browning, I found that I could comfortably shoot tight doubel-tap groups all day using the SA trigger; yet when it was a DA & SA double tap - the group opened up again! After much training it tightened up once more, I was accustomed to the difference in pulls. We added the draw to the equation and the group opened up again, as one was not initiating the shoot from a solid fiiring position but at the end of moving one's arms.

After P for Plenty of muscle memory training I could unconciously get my SIG from its holster and have my eye alligned with the sight picture. It's the pinnacle of that competency cycle:

Unconcious Incompetence - don't know what it is and I don't know if I can do it!
Concious incompetence - I'm aware of the skill and I can't do it
Concious Competence - I'm aware of the skill and if I concentrate I can do it!
Unconcious Competence - I can do it without thinking about it

Dave R · April 21, 2006, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Where can one find such plastic, primer fired bullets?

Most Sporting Goods stores that carry reloading equipment will have them. I bought mine at Sportsman's Warehouse.

If you can't find them locally, you can buy them online at www.midwayusa.com or other online retailers. Look up "Speer plastic training bullets."

If you use a revolver, you don't even need any reloading gear to use them. Buy the plastic "brass" that holds them, and buy the bullets separately. They have 'em for .38/.357, .44's and .45s. No .32s.

If you use them with a semi-auto, like I do, a minimum amount of reloading gear helps to punch out the used primers and put in new ones. You could prolly get by with a Lee hand press ($20 or so) a set of dies ($30 or so) and a hand-primer ($20 or so.). Compare that to 5 boxes of ammo.

You can re-use the plastic bullets indefinitely. I hang a surplus wool blanket over a stand and tape a target to it. It makes the bullets fall right at its base. I tried using a normal blanket, but got scolded by my wife because the plastic bullets put holes in it.

Its tons of fun to do drills in the garage for an hour or so (make sure you have ventilation!!!!!) You might even get a reluctant spouse to try it.

dirtieoleman · April 22, 2006, 11:43 AM

hi all.firsti am a civvy. not leo never have or was.i do posess a ccw.i carry a .45 cocked n locked..the gun club i belong to has a "ccw practice" for those of us that carry. in this practice we fire from 4 ft to 20 feet.i am disabled so i cant do the fast foot work but i do try.our R.O. is a nra instructor AND a county sheriff deputy.i feel very proud to have him help us learn what is right.we also do hostage take down drills,shoot on the move "backwards" ,behind cover. when we do speed mag changes this leaves me pretty much out ,cause i have no balance w/o my cane.o well, hope i'm not too long winded here but i think ya got my point. training is what it is all about.....any training ..
regards,
bill covill
michigan

Dave R · April 28, 2006, 01:31 PM

Good post, Bill. That's the kind of training that can save your life. Making small groups at long distances is fun, and it 'might' have an impact in a self-defense situation, but the exercises you talk about are the ones most likely to save your life.

Bill Johnson · May 6, 2006, 02:40 AM

I read about one Training situation online but i can't remember where. it stated that many police departments have an average of 92% first shot miss average nationally,and says they train for 25 yard shooting but recommends short draws having the gun only a short distance from the body with the sights pointed at the target From 4 feet on to 20 feet,then to press the gun forward (not lifting the left arm higher than the right) but straight out,else the right hand and arm of the Assailant will be blocked out of your vision by your raised left arm,i've tried this and seen that its far more accurate at close ranges....Theirs actually a tactical school that teaches it,i can't remember the name but you may find it on google
It suggests that regular Target methods for aimed fire don't work at 15 feet and under,if any of you know of the site please let me know,thanks........bill

Dust_Devil · May 6, 2006, 02:02 PM

I used to have the assumption that shooting at one long distance would make me a great shot. This may be somewhat true for a competitive bench shooter, but not true when you are training to defend yourself.

Knowing how to aim and shoot straight and putting all rounds in the same hole at 25 yards is NOT all what you need to know about shooting the concealed gun you use for protection.

You have to take in that you may have to draw really fast and shoot an attacker before you would even have time to get into that perfect stance, get that perfect grip and that perfect front sight picture and will just have to point shoot at the attacker after you barely even have drawn your weapon. You will have to learn to hit that target without using your sights.

What if one of your hands or your strong hand is injured? Do you train shooting with only one hand? With your weak hand?

Now imagine this. Your attacker, is not piece of paper, standing motionless in the same 25 yard spot, but is moving in different directions and positions and now you may of wished you of learn to shoot at a target that isn't in the same position all the time.

Imagine this also. You aren't going to be motionless and standing there in one spot. You may have to shoot while moving and possibly in different postions like kneeling or laying on the ground.

Lot more to know than putting well-aimed, slow-fired rounds into the same motionless target at 25 yards each time.

sonner shotter · May 27, 2006, 12:05 AM

My fiance' has his concealed carry,I want to know when i get my
concealed carry, my fiance' and i go to the range when we have our day
off together,How much is the class? I have a high point .380.

snolden · May 29, 2006, 08:42 AM

Get some professional training:

Learn a protected gun firing position (some forms are called a "speed rock"), learn how to shoot from your knees and behind cover, learn how to shoot while seated.

Can you draw with your weak hand? How about one handed slide rack for a failure to fire? Do you know how to shoot one handed, off handed?

Personally, I use a fairbairn sykes modified thinking (shooting to live pdf )

But I learned a ton more from a simple 8 hour defensive firearms class that cost me 80 bucks.

But for now, just read (check out Defensive Use of Firearms ) That is my instructor. There are a lot of common sense suggestions on his website.

April 10, 2006, 07:22 PM	#1
gdeal Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2005 Location: Southern California Posts: 748	Training for Concealed Carry Hello, I just go to the shooting range nothing more. I usually put a bull's eye target at 25 yards. I don't see the advantage of having it any shorter because it's about Shot Placement right? And if I can hit a target at 25 yards I would have no problem shooting at something ten yards away? Correct me if I am wrong. So my question is, what range in yards should I practice at?

April 10, 2006, 11:01 PM	#3
CWO4USCGRET Senior Member Join Date: June 29, 2005 Posts: 197	CCW training distances? Marksmanship? Tactical shooting? My agency's qualification course of fire is 30 rounds, starting at the 3.5 yard line and ending at the 15 yard line. I don't see much of a need to shoot beyond 15 yards in a work situation. Why do you want to carry concealed is a question you need to ask. When you have that answer then you can tailor a training program to your needs.

April 10, 2006, 11:19 PM	#4
CAPTAIN MIKE Member Join Date: January 23, 2005 Location: The Home of the Brave Posts: 77	Situational Awarness, Tactical Shooting Exercises Some time with your local IDPA chapter might be well spent. It is real-world, and while it is considerably less expensive than tactical training. However, if you can swing it it would be good to get some tactical training under your belt. We can all use more. __________________ Very Respectfully, Captain Mike www.GetYourCCW.biz PROUD TO BE A VETERAN

April 12, 2006, 09:44 AM	#6
TheBluesMan Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 15, 1999 Location: Ohio Posts: 7,558	I'll echo the recommendation to vary your distances. One yard away isn't too close, and 50 yards away isn't too far. Although, at the longer distances, I would question whether to engage or withdraw depending on the circumstances. Regardless, you should know the limitations and capabilities of both yourself and your sidearm. I'd also recommend you try point shooting at 1-3 yard distances just to see the results. You should always use your sights when you can, but if you can't, you should know where your natural point of aim/point of impact is. -Dave __________________ -Dave Miller ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ! NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Personal Protection. Tick-off Obama - Join the NRA Today - Save $10

April 16, 2006, 08:32 PM	#10
Dave R Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2000 Location: Idaho Posts: 6,073	My BIL in the FBI taught me that getting the pistol unholstered and on target fast is the skill that will save your life, more than being able to shoot small groups at long distances. So a good chunk of my practice time is spent on drawing from concealment and getting the first shot off quickly and accurately. I practice drawing from my IWB holster, and drawing my BUG from my pocket holster. Most ranges won't let you do this--that's why IDPA is such a good idea. I also so this in my garage, using Speer's plastic training bullets. They are powered by primer only, but shoot close enough to point of aim at garage distances that any difference is negligible. My draw-to-first-shot times and accuracy have improved a buch since I started practicing this. __________________ I am Pro-Rights (on gun issues).

April 10, 2006, 07:55 PM	#2
CraigJS Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2005 Posts: 372	Vary your distances, 3,7,11,20 yards what ever, a BG isn't going to just be at 25 yards. Shoot at 35, 40, 50 yards it's a good idea to learn what you and your pistol can do at as many different distances as possible.. It also can help you to estimate distances, and your reaction times/distances. Besides it's more FUN!

April 12, 2006, 08:47 AM	#5
threegun Junior member Join Date: March 1, 2006 Location: Tampa,Fl Posts: 4,000	Capt. Mike, A+

April 15, 2006, 03:13 PM	#8
zeroskillz Senior Member Join Date: March 17, 2006 Location: Denton County Texas Posts: 153	Even with what little experience I have, I would 2nd and 3rd what Capt. Mike suggested. I did alot of range practice at varying distances (and still do) and could put all my shots, save a few flyers, in a 5"-6" sized group at 25 yards (not great, but fine for COM). My first IDPA match, I completely missd the targets a bunch of times (those being roughly human torso sized targets ). From what I can tell, shooting under stress is completely different. It was a real eye opener for me. I've since gotten a bit better, and get less stressed at the start of each run at the matches. Not to mention I've been given great tips and help from the guys at the matches. All that for a $5 match fee, and my first match was free. Can't beat those prices for training. Even if you never do it again, try it once for the experience--your first one's free. Oh, another thing, it's a crapload of fun. Thats my 2 cents. -Zeke

April 17, 2006, 11:44 AM	#11
SBrocker8 Senior Member Join Date: May 2, 2005 Posts: 111	Where can one find such plastic, primer fired bullets?

April 21, 2006, 07:44 AM	#12
M1911 Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2000 Posts: 4,055	Or just get an airsoft gun.

April 21, 2006, 09:31 AM	#13
The British Soldier Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2005 Location: England...that green and pleasasnt land. Posts: 295	There is wisdom in the statement - 'that getting the pistol unholstered and on target fast is the skill that will save your life, more than being able to shoot small groups at long distances.' Like many I can happily shoot tight groups at whichever range necessary, but when movement is added to the equation many find that their tight groups are now expanded and I think that is a good thing. If your routine 1" grouping suddenly expands to 4" then don't worry too much, because rather than having one wound site you now have two! It may add to the effectiveness of what you are aiming to achieve rather than detract from it. When learning to shoot a P226, transitioning from using a Browning, I found that I could comfortably shoot tight doubel-tap groups all day using the SA trigger; yet when it was a DA & SA double tap - the group opened up again! After much training it tightened up once more, I was accustomed to the difference in pulls. We added the draw to the equation and the group opened up again, as one was not initiating the shoot from a solid fiiring position but at the end of moving one's arms. After P for Plenty of muscle memory training I could unconciously get my SIG from its holster and have my eye alligned with the sight picture. It's the pinnacle of that competency cycle: Unconcious Incompetence - don't know what it is and I don't know if I can do it! Concious incompetence - I'm aware of the skill and I can't do it Concious Competence - I'm aware of the skill and if I concentrate I can do it! Unconcious Competence - I can do it without thinking about it __________________ Mike When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains And the women come out to cut up what remains Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains An' go to your Gawd like a soldier. Rudyard Kipling.

April 22, 2006, 11:43 AM	#15
dirtieoleman Junior Member Join Date: April 17, 2006 Location: macomb county michigan Posts: 11	what range?? hi all.firsti am a civvy. not leo never have or was.i do posess a ccw.i carry a .45 cocked n locked..the gun club i belong to has a "ccw practice" for those of us that carry. in this practice we fire from 4 ft to 20 feet.i am disabled so i cant do the fast foot work but i do try.our R.O. is a nra instructor AND a county sheriff deputy.i feel very proud to have him help us learn what is right.we also do hostage take down drills,shoot on the move "backwards" ,behind cover. when we do speed mag changes this leaves me pretty much out ,cause i have no balance w/o my cane.o well, hope i'm not too long winded here but i think ya got my point. training is what it is all about.....any training .. regards, bill covill michigan

April 28, 2006, 01:31 PM	#16
Dave R Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2000 Location: Idaho Posts: 6,073	Good post, Bill. That's the kind of training that can save your life. Making small groups at long distances is fun, and it 'might' have an impact in a self-defense situation, but the exercises you talk about are the ones most likely to save your life. __________________ I am Pro-Rights (on gun issues).

May 6, 2006, 02:40 AM	#17
Bill Johnson Member Join Date: May 4, 2006 Posts: 68	I read about one Training situation online but i can't remember where. it stated that many police departments have an average of 92% first shot miss average nationally,and says they train for 25 yard shooting but recommends short draws having the gun only a short distance from the body with the sights pointed at the target From 4 feet on to 20 feet,then to press the gun forward (not lifting the left arm higher than the right) but straight out,else the right hand and arm of the Assailant will be blocked out of your vision by your raised left arm,i've tried this and seen that its far more accurate at close ranges....Theirs actually a tactical school that teaches it,i can't remember the name but you may find it on google It suggests that regular Target methods for aimed fire don't work at 15 feet and under,if any of you know of the site please let me know,thanks........bill

May 6, 2006, 02:02 PM	#18
Dust_Devil Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 235	Remember this if your training to defend yourself I used to have the assumption that shooting at one long distance would make me a great shot. This may be somewhat true for a competitive bench shooter, but not true when you are training to defend yourself. Knowing how to aim and shoot straight and putting all rounds in the same hole at 25 yards is NOT all what you need to know about shooting the concealed gun you use for protection. You have to take in that you may have to draw really fast and shoot an attacker before you would even have time to get into that perfect stance, get that perfect grip and that perfect front sight picture and will just have to point shoot at the attacker after you barely even have drawn your weapon. You will have to learn to hit that target without using your sights. What if one of your hands or your strong hand is injured? Do you train shooting with only one hand? With your weak hand? Now imagine this. Your attacker, is not piece of paper, standing motionless in the same 25 yard spot, but is moving in different directions and positions and now you may of wished you of learn to shoot at a target that isn't in the same position all the time. Imagine this also. You aren't going to be motionless and standing there in one spot. You may have to shoot while moving and possibly in different postions like kneeling or laying on the ground. Lot more to know than putting well-aimed, slow-fired rounds into the same motionless target at 25 yards each time.

May 27, 2006, 12:05 AM	#19
sonner shotter Junior Member Join Date: May 26, 2006 Location: oklahoma city, oklahoma Posts: 2	My fiance' has his concealed carry,I want to know when i get my concealed carry, my fiance' and i go to the range when we have our day off together,How much is the class? I have a high point .380.

May 29, 2006, 08:42 AM	#20
snolden Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2006 Location: N. E. AZ Posts: 387	Get some professional training: Learn a protected gun firing position (some forms are called a "speed rock"), learn how to shoot from your knees and behind cover, learn how to shoot while seated. Can you draw with your weak hand? How about one handed slide rack for a failure to fire? Do you know how to shoot one handed, off handed? Personally, I use a fairbairn sykes modified thinking (shooting to live pdf ) But I learned a ton more from a simple 8 hour defensive firearms class that cost me 80 bucks. But for now, just read (check out Defensive Use of Firearms ) That is my instructor. There are a lot of common sense suggestions on his website.