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Old September 25, 2011, 10:20 PM   #1
bluetopper
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Why Small Primers in 45acp?

I've been seeing more 45acp brass made for small primers lying around at the range. My only question is why?

Talk about throwing a monkey wrench in the reloading process!
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Old September 25, 2011, 10:49 PM   #2
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Besides being Spawn of the Devil, they seem to be associated with "Non-toxic" no-lead ammo.

I can unequivocally state that they are a PITA!!
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Old September 25, 2011, 11:12 PM   #3
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I wish I knew, hope it doesn't become the new standard. Loaded up 300 tonight and double-checked each case for small primers. It's hard for my old eyes to catch them, takes all the fun out of using my old 550.
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Old September 26, 2011, 12:22 AM   #4
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They are becoming more and more common. They started out for NT primers, which have higher brissance and will blow out a large primer if the flash hole isn't extra large (that's what they did when these first came out; LP pocket with oversize flash hole). Now they just use the small pocket to avoid changing the flash hole size. At least, I assume these have .079" flash holes and not .069". Once they can make all the brass in just one size, they probably want the same priming tooling to work for both NT and standard.

Theoretically there may be another advantage. .45 ACP ignition irregularity due to the large primer overpressurizing the small powder space and unseating the bullet before the powder gets burning well is a common issue. The small primers have less fuel in them to pressurize the limited powder space and may lead to lower velocity extreme spread because of that.

I haven't got around to trying that theory out. I do know match shooters reported military match ammo was more accurate than commercial years ago, and it was traced down the the military pitch seal gluing the bullets in just hard enough to avoid the unseating, making start pressures more consistent. That can show up on a 50 yard slow fire target. So, if the small primer pockets bring that added accuracy to the game, then I'm willing to adapt. If you see me put up several thousand new pieces of .45 ACP brass for sale, you'll know I tested the theory and validated it to my own satisfaction.
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Old September 26, 2011, 08:25 AM   #5
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Small Primers in a 45 ACP is an evil commie plot against those of us who use progressive loaders to load 45s.

We dump the brass in the case feeder, some SP brass sneaks in to jam up the machine.
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Old September 26, 2011, 08:27 AM   #6
shabodah
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I had been shooting the Winchester WinClean ammo when it was available because I could put more rounds through the gun with less cleaning. Of course, that was when a box of 50 in 45 was 11 or 12 dollars. Anyway, they had the NT cases and were doing the same back then (2003 or 2004).
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Old September 26, 2011, 09:23 AM   #7
dunerjeff
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I think they are all going to switch over to small primers and make it the new standard.I personaly am liking them(I bought a couple thousand because they were way cheaper than the standard),they seem to help in accuracy,at least the number of different loads I've tried tended to be more consistant.But that isn't with any side to side comparisons yet.
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Old September 26, 2011, 09:23 AM   #8
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I had run across them from time to time after collecting my brass at the range, but it wasn't until I bought a bag of once-fired brass that I got enough to bother to reload. I took 100 of them to the range yesterday.

I've got a light hammer spring and usually have to hit about 2% of my Federal 150 primers twice, but didn't have any problems with the small primers. That's not really a big enough sample to say that they're better, but it's enough to make we willing to switch to them exclusively until I can decide.

I stained them red to make it easier for me to sort them and as a warning to anybody who might pick some up on the range. Soaking overnight in red Rit dye didn't really do much more than make them wet, but there's a little color to them.
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Old September 26, 2011, 11:23 PM   #9
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It would be nice if they'd just make them all SPP as I also reload for 9mm.
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Old September 26, 2011, 11:44 PM   #10
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Old September 27, 2011, 06:48 AM   #11
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maybe things have changed... but I have an old Handloader magazine sitting by my reading chair at home... with an artical about small vrs large primer pockets in both rifle & handgun calibers where they are both available... the artical is from the 90's... If I remember correctly they found a very little accuracy advantage in hot weather, but started getting extreme velocity spreads as the temp cooled down ( & I think they only shot down to 40* or so ) I find I often shoot at 40* & lower temps here in MN... I don't shoot much 45 acp but I'll keep my large primers on 45 caliber cartridges please
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Old September 27, 2011, 08:42 AM   #12
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In my honest opinion, it would be a fine idea if not for the fact that we have a hundred years worth of perfectly good large primer .45 Auto brass floating around on this planet.

To make the change now makes perfect sense for the ammo manufacturers -- they certainly do not cater to handloaders when they are making, packaging and selling factory ammunition. If anything, we are a natural adversary of them. I mean -- they are in business to sell ammo and we never buy their ammo. We buy anything and everything, but we don't buy their ammo. So the change they make is seamless and nearly unnoticed to their actual customers, while those of us who feed off their product take it in the shorts.

Certainly, these same companies also produce, market and sell reloading components, so they should keep that in mind... but their bread & butter is in ammo sales and for that, it makes sense, even if it completely screws over everyone out there that reloads.

My biggest concern is that it's more than a minor annoyance... this is an actual hazard to fingers and eyeballs everywhere. Personally speaking, it truly is nothing more than an annoyance to me... because I separate all my brass by headstamps and it's easy when you are going through that labor already to sift out the silly small primer .45 brass. But in the larger picture, I have no doubt that folks at reloading benches everywhere are going to be forcing large primers in to small flash holes and getting a BANG for their efforts. I just hope the damage is minimal and that there are no chain fires.

It's a horrible idea and I condemn them for it, but I can't sit here and tell you that it's some kind of surprise.

I feel similarly about Hornady's new "steel match" line of ammunition. What an absolute kick in sack to hordes of handloaders everywhere -- and with Hornady, I would imagine that handloaders make up the bulk of their customers... woudn't we? And the Steel Match stuff isn't much, if any cheaper than basic WWB or UMC or Blazer Brass handgun ammo. (it may be a higher quality bullet, but it's not cheaper and you crap steel cases that will do nothing more the rest of their lives than be left to pollute shooting ranges and rust in the rain)

Suck, SUCK idea there Hornady.
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Old September 27, 2011, 08:49 AM   #13
Magnum Wheel Man
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While I pretty much agree... steel cases make range clean up easier since I have a big magnet on a stick... they just go into the recylcle pail... now if some would just come up with a brass magnet... I'd start shooting my autos more
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Old September 27, 2011, 09:31 AM   #14
lll Otto lll
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Yeah, the joys of crushing a primer, jamming the press, stopping the entire process and wasting time to fix the mess.

And the ADDED BONUS: I now have to hand-sort through a bucket of 45 brass to remove all of the bad brass.

This thread motivated me to call my supplier and order another 2500 once fired Winchesters.
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Old September 27, 2011, 09:33 AM   #15
brickeyee
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Quote:
Small Primers in a 45 ACP is an evil commie plot against those of us who use progressive loaders to load 45s.
And fail to inspect the brass.
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Old September 27, 2011, 11:43 AM   #16
Sevens
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Quote:
steel cases make range clean up easier since I have a big magnet on a stick... they just go into the recylcle pail...
My experience over a couple of decades of visiting outdoor ranges with public access (non-membership places where anyone can come, pay and shoot) is that n-o-b-o-d-y picks up steel case chi-com milsurp crap with any manner of magnets or tools.

Brass gets scattered in every direction. Reloadable brass gets picked up either by the folks that shot it... the folks still there who want it and reload, or picked up by the range master or other folks who hang out there also to be reloaded or sold.

Nobody picks up the steel crap. It goes from it's oddball color to rust over time and it gets covered with more and more of the same. The rifle area is obviously the worst. 7.62x39 and 7.62x54R is piled up and maybe the range itself picks the crap up once a year.

Your brass magnet? I've heard that more time in handloading forums then I hear "tried by 12 rather than carried by 6" in every other area of every other gun discussion forum.
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