The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Competition Shooting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old July 19, 2017, 08:54 AM   #1
g.willikers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 10,442
Where else but in America.

Where else but in the US would a civilian shooter win a major match over military and police competitors?
In many (most?) countries it's not even possible for mere civilians to own guns, let alone being able to get good enough to do anything like this.

It happened at the Camp Perry precision pistol match.
A full account is here:
https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2017/...CENSORED-=0717
__________________
Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez:
“Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”
g.willikers is offline  
Old July 19, 2017, 09:14 AM   #2
TXAZ
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 5, 2010
Location: McMurdo Sound Texas
Posts: 4,322
Absolutely.
But in a later report, the civilian who won Jonathan Shue, credited his win to his new counterbalancing beard, something to look for in future competitions.
__________________

Cave illos in guns et backhoes
TXAZ is offline  
Old July 19, 2017, 09:22 AM   #3
MarkCO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 1998
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 4,296
Civilians beat Mil/LE competitors in local and major matches in dozens of types of shooting competitions every weekend. The AMU shooters, in all their disciplines, are impressive and beating any of them, regardless, is an impressive feat.
__________________
Good Shooting, MarkCO
www.CarbonArms.us
MarkCO is offline  
Old July 19, 2017, 09:40 AM   #4
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 18,486
Neat. I think Gil Hebard was the only champion civilian shooter of his day.
Jim Watson is online now  
Old July 19, 2017, 11:28 AM   #5
RickB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2000
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 8,511
Wasn't Jim Clark the first guy to win Camp Perry who wasn't active-duty military?

Travis Tomasie was USPSA champ, and IPSC world champ, and he was always a contender when he shot for the AMU, but I think he was already out of the army when he won.
__________________
Runs off at the mouth about anything 1911 related on this site and half the time is flat out wrong.
RickB is offline  
Old July 19, 2017, 11:58 AM   #6
T. O'Heir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 12,453
Military and police don't shoot anywhere near as much as people seem to think. Far less so in the National Guard/Militia.(Regm't ran one range weekend in the 6 years I was there. 1/3 of the attendees were my Cadets). Civilians who shoot for recreation or competitively do so far more often.
My team at the club I shot with in TO years ago used to wipe the floor with our TO PD competitors regularly. ISU(now called ISS) shooting. One silly cop showed up with his service revolver(said it was years ago) with no sights for an Olympic style bullseye match.
__________________
Spelling and grammar count!
T. O'Heir is offline  
Old July 20, 2017, 08:19 AM   #7
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 11,061
The Weapons & Materials Research Directorate of the Army Research Laboratory published a white paper of these efforts called "Sniper Weapon Fire Control Error Budget Analysis"

Comparing Military Snipers with Civilian Competitive Shooters


According to their tests, the standard deviation of aiming error for the best, formally-trained operational snipers was three times worse than tested High Power and Long Range competition shooters sufficiently skilled to compete successfully in national level match competition at Camp Perry and the like.

In fact, the worst competition shooters tested were as good or better than the best snipers in basic holding and shooting fundamentals.

Its not difficult to understand when you consider that the military (excluding the Army Marksmanship Unit) don't really shoot that much.

It's simply not possible for a soldier to draw his weapon and shoot every day, or even spend hours setting around the billets dry firing.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old July 20, 2017, 10:40 AM   #8
JoeSixpack
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 12, 2017
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,048
On the other hand it's a good case of why mainland America will never be invaded.
JoeSixpack is offline  
Old July 20, 2017, 06:05 PM   #9
RickB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2000
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 8,511
Not militarily, anyway.
__________________
Runs off at the mouth about anything 1911 related on this site and half the time is flat out wrong.
RickB is offline  
Old July 21, 2017, 07:34 AM   #10
g.willikers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 10,442
Uncle Walt sez, "We have met the enemy and they is us."
__________________
Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez:
“Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”
g.willikers is offline  
Old July 22, 2017, 01:44 PM   #11
SIGSHR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 13, 2005
Posts: 4,700
In my 4 years of Active Duty-Army, 1967-1971 I went to the range THREE times, only fired TWICE. Marksmanship and small arms proficiency back then
rated about 79 on a scale of 1-10, the firearms enthusiast was derided as a "nut". Recreational shooting opportunities for a single EM living in the barracks were non-existent. As were competitions. Small arms were seen as a best a necessary evil and usually an annoyance and a nuisance.
SIGSHR is offline  
Old July 23, 2017, 10:56 PM   #12
PPGMD
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Posts: 348
Quote:
Comparing Military Snipers with Civilian Competitive Shooters

According to their tests, the standard deviation of aiming error for the best, formally-trained operational snipers was three times worse than tested High Power and Long Range competition shooters sufficiently skilled to compete successfully in national level match competition at Camp Perry and the like.

In fact, the worst competition shooters tested were as good or better than the best snipers in basic holding and shooting fundamentals.
That might have more to do with the fact that being a sniper is like 10% basic marksmanship and 90% other stuff like field craft.
PPGMD is offline  
Old July 26, 2017, 05:01 PM   #13
shooterdownunder
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 28, 2013
Location: sydney
Posts: 135
Happens quite often here considering how often police and military get to shoot.
in fact one of the people in my safe handling class said she joined the club because the police gave her a gun but won't teach how to shoot it properly. (a bit concerning in itself)
shooterdownunder is offline  
Old July 27, 2017, 08:01 AM   #14
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 11,061
Quote:
That might have more to do with the fact that being a sniper is like 10% basic marksmanship and 90% other stuff like field craft.
That may be true, but we're discussing marksmanship here.

I'm sure few civilian shooters are independently wealthy. We all have to have a job or some sort to feed our shooting hobbies.

So as shooting is just a portion of a sniper's job, competition shooting is just a portion of the civilians job. He probably spends 90% of his time working in an office/shop or what ever. Not to mention most of us have families we need to spend time with.

The point being, civilians on the whole, spend the effort to become better marksmen then the military sniper.

I taught sniper schools, and I was a LE firearms instructor. The students that progressed are the ones who went above and beyond, to practice their skills.
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old August 12, 2017, 05:25 PM   #15
Husqvarna
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 7, 2012
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,000
Quote:
In many (most?) countries it's not even possible for mere civilians to own guns, let alone being able to get good enough to do anything like this.
no democratic country completely bans guns

even Japan who is possibly the strictest democratic country have some form of

a bunch of quasi dictatorships have more severe bans

You do see that American shooters aren't winning every olympic shooting event, world championship in IPSC, 3-gun and so on?

same thing happens here

civilian shooters are even brought in for consulting and training by the armed forces
and we have a great system of soldiers getting to compete in IPSC with their service weapons
Husqvarna is offline  
Old August 14, 2017, 09:30 AM   #16
langenc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 19, 2007
Location: Montmorency Co, MI
Posts: 1,551
Back in 65 and 66 I was assigned to the same post as the Army Pentathalon team. When they came to the mess hall they came directly from the stable. They were finally asked to go home and shower before the mess hall.

How much they shot??? Never heard much about their endeavors.
langenc is offline  
Old August 14, 2017, 03:46 PM   #17
Don P
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2005
Location: Swamp dweller
Posts: 6,187
I shoot with a gentleman that has won both rifle and pistol competitions at Camp Perry. He is a civilian
__________________
NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer,
ICORE Range Officer,
,MAG 40 Graduate
As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.
Don P is offline  
Old August 15, 2017, 01:26 AM   #18
Model12Win
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2012
Posts: 5,854
Quote:
Originally Posted by SIGSHR View Post
In my 4 years of Active Duty-Army, 1967-1971 I went to the range THREE times, only fired TWICE. Marksmanship and small arms proficiency back then
rated about 79 on a scale of 1-10, the firearms enthusiast was derided as a "nut". Recreational shooting opportunities for a single EM living in the barracks were non-existent. As were competitions. Small arms were seen as a best a necessary evil and usually an annoyance and a nuisance.
Sounds exactly like my recent experiences in the Air Force.

Most would be very surprised how few care about shooting, and how many consider annual qualifications an annoyance or a cause for concern when they find out their coworkers are firearms enthusiasts. Actually just recently they got rid of the annual qualification requirements. You need only qualify right before you deploy on either the M4 or M9. No I am not making that up and wish it weren't true.

The twisted idea from many civillians that everyone in the military is a highly trained firearms expert and likes guns/shooting is 100% fantasy.
Model12Win is offline  
Old August 15, 2017, 05:47 AM   #19
darkgael
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2006
Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania.
Posts: 5,473
Shue did a great job. Note, though, that the next six places (2-7) were all military.

SFC Brandon Green was the big winner in HP CMP. National Trophy Individual score of 499-30X. He was perfect in the Hearst match with a clean 300.
__________________
“Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ...
NRA Life Member
darkgael is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.11426 seconds with 8 queries