Knife: Plain edge or serrated?

[M1911]

Tourist:

I'm sure that the Salt is a fine knife. I carry a Spyderco Delica. Last September I went surf casting for a couple weeks. Left one of my Delicas in my tackle box. I got it out last month. Washed out the sand. Spent 5 minutes with 600 grit sandpaper to take off a 2mm spot of rust. That was it.

I'm sure the Salt is more rust resistant, but regular Spyderco's are pretty good even when neglected.

[jhansman]

I've always been a serrated fan myself. Lends a dual action to the knife, and I guess I just like it.

[DonR101395]

I like plain blades. IMHO the most worthless blade it the partially serrated. It's like have two small knives both of which are too small to do what you want them to do.

[The Tourist]

The real issue here isn't even the configuration. The problem is the standard we use to define 'sharp.' That is the crux of my position on this debate.

Regretfully, the American standard for 'sharp' is very poor, and getting worse by the edges I seen on new knives. People don't know how to sharpen, and when they do they use very coarse stones, like Arkansas and Red India.

I'm not surprised that many of you stand firmly in support of serrations. In many ways, it is the only configuration you have seen in your life that impresses you.

May I suggest that you google a bit on Japanese waterstones and the edges they produce. When you have an average, over-the-counter pocketknife that actually cuts like a razor, the performance will astound you. When a seatbelt slices as easily as newsprint you'll wonder why no one has shown you this before.

I have seen several snippets, TV shows and uTube shorts on the performance of Japanese laminate blades, produced and sharpened with technology from the 13th century.

You can always tell a knife wound from the Yakuza. You cannot get a knife like that sharpened in the United States...

[Hawg]

I like a plain carbon steel blade.

[JohnKSa]

My take based on what I see around me.

People like serrated blades because they don't cut with their knives, they "saw" with their knives.

People "saw" with their knives because their knife blades are not sharp.

People's knife blades are not sharp because they don't keep them sharp.

People don't keep their knives sharp because they don't know how to.

People don't know how to keep their knives sharp because they THINK they know how so they don't ever learn.

[tplumeri]

The problem is the standard we use to define 'sharp.'

Hey gang,
when the tourist talks about knives, best to listen! He knows of what he speaks.

For my two cents;
if youre carrying tactical it doesnt matter if its serrated, partially serrated or otherwise. Its all technique (training).
Ive been involved in hand to hand exercises pitting a 2 inch blade against a machete. The machete doesnt always win.
If you are carrying a knife for self defense keep in mind that youre opponent may also have a blade. hand to hand with knives is one of the most intense encounters you will ever experience.
If you are not properly trained its better you dont carry. its the same for knives as it is for guns.
I was trained hand to hand in the army 10 years ago. never had much practice when i got out, I dont carry a knife anymore. dont feel proficient.
If i cant take em out with a hollow point or two........
JMHO
tom

[Bill DeShivs]

I agree with John. People don't know what sharp is, and don't know how to sharpen.
The jig-type sharpeners are all the rage, and people think you have to use them to get a knife sharp. They think hand sharpening is a "lost art."
You can get a very nice edge with an India or Arkansas stone, if you know how to sharpen. They are not very coarse. Waterstones are overkill for 90 % of knife users.
I also agree that carrying a knife for self defense will get you hurt or killed.
Serrated edges are great on bread knives.

[KChen986]

I work as a sushi chef...so plain edges for me...

The knives we use at work have to be *extremely* sharp because or the delicate fishes and rolls that we have to slice.

That being said, unless I was going to cut something hard like wood, I'm sure a sharp plain edge will fare as well as a serrated edge.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by KChen986

I work as a sushi chef...so plain edges for me...

You'd be amazed at how many sashimi knives are now used in restaurants that really don't focus on Asian cuisine. In fact, one of the projects I have planned for the next few weeks is to fully sharpen a white steel deba with a traditional chisel grind.

I did a white steel butakiri a few months ago and I was very impressed.

Most of the sashimi knives I service are the more modern stainless variety, however I still use Japanese waterstones to sharpen them.

During this project I am also going to try a stainless laminate gyuto with a V grind. I was pleasantly surprised on just how good a Hattori was a few weeks ago.

This is the reason I don't think serrations are of any true value. If I took a plain-jane white or blue steel knife and sharpened it to your standards, most people would be shocked on just how sharp knives can be.

[Martyn4802]

The Tourist makes good points in his posts on this thread.
I'm a knife maker, and have been since 1980. Serrated edges are for people who who either don't know how to, or don't want to, sharpen a straight edge blade.
If I wanted a saw, I'd buy a saw. But, for a knife, non-serrated for me.

Martyn

[AK103K]

Serrated edges are for people who who either don't know how to, or don't want to, sharpen a straight edge blade.

I have to disagree here. I work in heavy construction. We have to deal with materials that will quickly take the edge off of pretty much anything, and I dont care how good or sharp you think your knife is.

The material itself is bad enough, but then you also have to add in that is usually covered and or embedded with mud dirt, and a host of other things. Serrated edges tend to allow you to get through the day, where a plain edge usually wont.

This is one reason may of us carry more than one and often use a throw away, or the disposable razor type knives (I just found serrated razors for mine last night as a matter of fact), which really pretty much suck except for specific uses.

My "working" knives serve at hard labor, and I'm a lot nicer to mine than most. I use them for what they were meant to be used, and dont pry, or try to use them as a screw driver, etc. I can pretty much guarantee, from what I've seen of most of the pics of knives posted, you probably would not let one of us have yours to cut something if you were working with us and were asked.

Serrations also allow you to get through things like hemp or nylon ropes more quickly than with a plain blade, and especially if you cut a lot of them. Serrations also offer more cutting area per inch of blade than a pain edge does.

I think a lot of this discussion will depend on what you do with and expect out of your knife. They are really just specific tools for a specific use, and like most anything that is a general or multipurpose use type thing, you usually dont get really good specific use out of them. A fancy chef knife is of no use to me in the field, just the same as my el cheapo Boker Kalashnikov auto would be of little use to my wife in the kitchen. Works good on deer sausage and smoked cheese at dinner time in the dirt though.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by AK103K

I have to disagree here. I work in heavy construction.

In a forum we speak in generalities. If I was going to spend a lot of time on a boat, I would sharpen myself the top of the line Myerchin. A sharp Buck 110 would be a good choice for a deer hunt or an extended motorcycle trip. If a client wanted to build a new kitchen, I'd make sure they had some Hattori's or something from Mr. Itou.

I use a 90 cent chisel to refurbish my waterstones.

However, the fact remains that I can take a white steel Japanese laminate and polish it so that it is dangerous to touch. I was wrapping a finished piece for a client, took my eyes off of the knife for a moment to answer a question she had, and sliced open my finger.

Now, the issue of "practical sharpness" is akin to the debate on "practical accuracy." You don't need a hand-built rail gun used in benchrest championships to hunt deer. Most of you will never need the over-polished edge I have on my jackknife--which I use to show potential clients my services.

I look at this in simple terms. I live in Wisconsin, and I drive a 4-wheel drive F-150. Short box, 17-inch tires, choppy ride, but excellent in heavy snow--like we had last week. If I moved to Arizona, I'd buy a car for comfort.

You may find a serrated knife practical (in your unique job), but the fact remains it is a poor second choice for the majority of people, it has no day-to-day value, it's a lousy substitute for proper edge care, and it makes horrible ugly cuts, which are more like chainsaw rips.

As a professional, I have sold two knives out of my pants pockets. In the final analysis, once demonstrated, a client would rather have a functional knife with a scratched handle than a new knife that doesn't cut at all.

[AK103K]

In a forum we speak in generalities.

True, but most of what your "speaking" of, isnt what 90%+ of what generally is spoke. You and a small few are far on one side and many more are farther on the other, some of us are more your side of middle. I'd be willing to bet that more knives are sharpened with a draw through sharpener than are ever done at the level your discussing.

However, the fact remains that I can take a white steel Japanese laminate and polish it so that it is dangerous to touch. I was wrapping a finished piece for a client, took my eyes off of the knife for a moment to answer a question she had, and sliced open my finger.

I've basically dont the same with a couple of my pocket knives when I wasnt paying attention. A sharp knife is a sharp knife. Some just dont hurt as bad when they cut.

Now, the issue of "practical sharpness" is akin to the debate on "practical accuracy." You don't need a hand-built rail gun used in benchrest championships to hunt deer. Most of you will never need the over-polished edge I have on my jackknife--which I use to show potential clients my services.

I polish (as best I can) my pocket knives, and actually all my knives, even the cheap ones. There is no such thing as to sharp a knife, just like there is not such thing as to accurate a gun.

You may find a serrated knife practical (in your unique job), but the fact remains it is a poor second choice for the majority of people, it has no day-to-day value, it's a lousy substitute for proper edge care, and it makes horrible ugly cuts, which are more like chainsaw rips.

If your a knife snob, (and I admit, I'm a "minor" one) maybe this is true, but for the majority of people who actually use a knife for day to day living, I dont think it is. Some things also just need cut, it doesnt have to be pretty, and the stuff being cut doesnt know if it was with a $2 knife or a $200 knife.

As a professional, I have sold two knives out of my pants pockets. In the final analysis, once demonstrated, a client would rather have a functional knife with a scratched handle than a new knife that doesn't cut at all.

As a professional, why would you sell him one that wouldnt?

[The Tourist]

AK103K, I understand the thrust of your argument, however, American knives are simply not sharp. And all of those old stories about butchers being superior sharpeners is largely urban legend.

For the most part, the systems used to sharpen knives now weren't available to many people in recent history. As you say, there were "the few," however when it comes to Joe-Lunchbox and his pocketknife, he pretty much sharpened knives the way his grandfather showed him. In most cases, on the same stone. My Dad only had one stone.

Then along comes a gentleman named Ben Dale who is one of those professional sharpeners that freehands better than all of the rest of can do with a jig. He is so good, that he has too many clients.

To remedy the problem, he invents a sharpening fixture called "The Edge Pro." However, unlike guided systems that use diamonds which tear out hunks of steel, Mr. Dale introduces middle America to Japanese waterstones. And the lineage and procedures of this method go back in history before the hay-day of Japanese samurai swords in the 13th century.

The next phase is idiots like me. We decide to take this samurai procedure to 5 dollar jackknives. And that pretty much leads us to this debate.

At the present time, any working man can come up to me and get a sharpening done with stone, paste and glass for a few bucks. And as this procedure becomes common place, so do peoples' opinion about what is sharp.

Granted, during my first public years, the first question was usually, "Yes, it's pretty, but will it last?" But it is now also common to have Buck 110's go three years without a touch-up.

Now, back to the debate. Not everyone knows that things are changing. Better steels, affordable procedures. They sharpen like always, with coarse stones harkening back to the late 1880's, about the same time as the first cartridge guns.

And with this new rendition of an old idea, more and more guys working in the trades are toting working knives with the same edges used by the samurai. The condition of ripping with poorly designed blades and suspect serrations is unneeded.

We now have Wisconsin hunters boning deer with Japanese sashimi knives.

[AK103K]

Hey, at least some are figuring out that the stone doesnt have to be "stone" at all, and preferably isnt, and when they understand, they get it. A mirror, especially under glass, is a wonderous thing.

Going the other direction, I've seen people try to sharpen or touch up things on concrete slabs and curbs.

I think a lot of people think that the edge you get when you buy a knife is the best its going to be.

There seems to be some misunderstanding here about the use of the serrations. They have a specific purpose and are not (usually) for general cutting. They tend to work better for abusive cutting, or cutting of things that require more aggressive means or rob your "good" edge of its usefulness. Sometimes it just makes sense not to use your "good" edge at all, saving it for other things, especially if your not worried about haw the cut looks or comes out.

Some may not like the idea of a combo blade, and thats fine, its all personal choice. I like some blades to have one and others to be plain, depends on what I want it for.

[Buzzcook]

Straight edge.

My preference for sharpening has always been a tri-stone. The back of a plate works surprisingly well.
I've worked in many kitchens and most people don't know what a sharp knife is. When they do get hold of a sharp knife they do their best to dull it up.

What bugs me the most is visiting relatives or friends and being asked to help in the kitchen. They hand me a dull hunk of metal that might have been a knife in a former life time. Usually that knife will be something totally unsuited to the purpose.
I've given several people chefs knives just in case they ask me into their kitchens again.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by AK103K

There seems to be some misunderstanding here about the use of the serrations. They have a specific purpose

I think you and I actually agree. The issue, on my side, is that I think the list of people who really need serrations is much shorter than yours.

I will make one last example. If you google the SW automatic OPS knife, you will most likely find a black, tanto style police knife, half serrated. As I began to sell and service, this was the popular cops' knife in my area. The belief was the serrations were needed for the villainous seatbelt.

Over time, I sharpened the plain edge and repaired the damage to the serrations.

I don't sell that many combo edges anymore. A sharp, plain edge is just as effective in emergencies, and allows the officer to use the knife daily in mundane tasks.

Under water, in the rain, on sloppy media, etc., a serrated blade has value to that professional. However, the last time I was under water was in the shower at the gym. I use a plain edge Emerson to cut slippery buttered steak and potatoes. If it rains, both me and my bike get soaked, not only my knife.

However, your list is longer. I attribute that to the assumption that competent tinkers do not work in your vicinity. If you ever get to Madison, bring me your deer knife--you know, the one that gets slippery in blood and collides against bone.

[KellyTTE]

The OP didn't specify use, so I'll ASSUME self-defense.

Serrated blades snag badly in nylon jackets, windbreakers, and clothing. This is experience speaking and I've got the scars from the knife fights that back up this observation.

If you intend to defend yourself with a blade, a non-serrated edge is the way to go.

[mesabi]

I carry Kershaw. I have a Scallion because i lost my Leek. I think part of me died inside when I lost that knife in the woods. I started carrying knives at work to open boxes and crates and what not. Then I started carrying a knife after work when one of the times I stopped to help someone on the side of the road, A guy stabbed another guy. Then I stopped carrying my one hand open junk knife and got that Leek. I figure if I would ever have to use it in self defence, just opening it with the speedsafe will make someone think twice.

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by KellyTTE

ASSUME self-defense...If you intend to defend yourself with a blade, a non-serrated edge is the way to go.

You know, I never thought of self-defense. The reason being that the serrations on most knives are towards the back of the blade's edge.

(I have seen a Russian knife with serrations towards the front, and once on a knife Bear Grills used on "Man vs. Wild")

My comments were towards utility. Frankly, that's even in question.

Off the top of my head I cannot think of a serrated knife that is successfully marketed for defense.

At one time Spyderco made an extreme hawkbill knife called "The Citizen." The story is that everyone knew the knife was geared for self-defense, but the company didn't want to market it that way.

You will also notice I used the phrase "successfully marketed."

[The Tourist]

Originally Posted by KellyTTE

ASSUME self-defense...If you intend to defend yourself with a blade, a non-serrated edge is the way to go.

You know, I never thought of self-defense. The reason being that the serrations on most knives are towards the back of the blade's edge.

(I have seen a Russian knife with serrations towards the front, and once on a knife Bear Grills used on "Man vs. Wild")

My comments were towards utility. Frankly, that's even in question.

Off the top of my head I cannot think of a serrated knife that is successfully marketed for defense.

At one time Spyderco made an extreme hawkbill knife called "The Citizen." The story is that everyone knew the knife was geared for self-defense, but the company didn't want to market it that way.

You will also notice I used the phrase "successfully marketed."

PVK&T has one in their Spydie section.

[Mags]

All of you have some fine points and i have learned a bit here. its all what your intended purposes are. I, like AK103, work in construction. I'm a plumber and often need to cut plastic,rubber and cardboard. One swipe with the serrated portion of my knife across some rubber hoseing does the job. If I use my straight edge on the same material I would have to saw the straight edge through. Thus making the task longer and more dangerous has I'm holding the floppy hose close by the cutting line. I agree, I've never atempted to sharpen my serrated portion nor do I know how. I usually have a fairly cheap knife for work usage. I still carry a partially serrated knife after hours in my pocket, probably because its habbit and feel that the serrated portion will come in handly if I need to cut some tough material. Actually on Christmas I used my new Kershaw tactical Blur to open my kids toys. They sure package the hell out of those things! I used the staight edge to open the boxes and fairly heavy clear plastic coverings. I then had to use the serrated part to cut through the heavy plastic tie downs (zip ties) that held the toys to the box. The straight just wasnt adquate enough to get through the heavy plastic with out many little jabs and swipes, as the serrated edge went through in one or two little pulling motions. I really feel that a knife for me with out some serrations is a half a tool.