My beef with the phrase "once fired brass"

[Grey_Lion]

Can anyone direct me to a scientific study on "once fired brass"? I ask as I've never seen one.

Even if you are opening what you believe to be a box of factory ammo that you bought at a gun show - are you prepared to guarantee that the brass you've just picked up after ending a target is once fired? Or was that box of Winchester just some very clean reloads that vendor just made a good margin on?

What I can't seem to figure out is what people imagine is so all-fired "magical" about the term once fired brass?

Sure - I'll give you that brass does have a limited lifespan and the more it's been shot the more metal fatigue and stress fractures are an issue.

With that said, however, there is some range brass I won't reload once - BLAZER - because of the poor quality of the brass they use and the number of supposed once fired blazer brass that's fractured. I say this having a good number of blazer range brass with some pretty profound cracks in my pile of teaching brass to show folks what to reject when you're reloading.

And then there's some FEDERAL and REMINGTON brass in my " collection " that I'm certain I've fired at least 4 or 5 times and will likely fire a few more times before it gets retired.

So I don't buy into this whole myth of " once fired brass " in pistol ammo.

Rifle's another story.

And I can't say that I put any faith in anyone else telling me a shell has been "once fired" than I trust anyone who says that "surgical stainless" is actually a thing - because it isn't - it's a marketing term.....

So anyone who sites " once fired brass " - I have to wonder what else they're going to try to sell me....

If you've got a bona fide link to a verified well supported scientific study - I'd like to see it.

Til then - the phrase " once fired brass " is a relatively unverifiable meaningless term to my ears.

I'm FAR more impressed my the headstamp on the shell and my personal experience having made and fired thousands of reloads in .40 S&W.

As always - I invite your opinions and experience on the matter as a topic of discussion.

[TXAZ]

As a corollary, one of the nationwide car radio talk show host indicated it “only takes 1 owner to destroy a car”.
My guess is 1 round of poorly loaded brass can do the same.

[RC20]

Buyer beware?

Not sure I understand it.

It reads a bit like Dear Abby. My boyfriend drinks all the time, should I leave him?

There are many outlets that sell once fired and I take them at their word it is just that. So far I have not had an issue.

If you buy at a gun show? Kind of like buying a car in New Orleans after Kartina.

Range Pickup? some indicators (like the right primer color though that's not a guarantee)

Watch the shooter who leaves it? Nice new box? On the ground?

I did pick up some Lapua that had loose primers. Most did not but some did. Ok, take it for what its worth and worst case it cost a primer to find the loose pocket.

We are given minds to sort through all that. No one (other than me of course) is 100% right. Enjoy the journey or you can just buy factory and not worry about it.

[briandg]

Right now, a government surplus auction site, and official government site, not some bogus one, has about thirty tons of military and le brass for sale. there are many, many tons of brass fired and it is easy to know if it's once fired, so there should be no problem finding a seller that offers it and actually sells once fired. I know that a lot of brass that it salvaged just goes straight to recycle, because it's random range brass.

No reputable dealer, not a one, will sell "once fired brass" that they don't actually have a provenance on, there are millions of dollars to lose over that class action or liability suit.

I wouldn't use range pickup rifle brass. That simple. I don't know if I could possibly find and reuse only my own pistol brass, I don't worry about that. mostly the shooters here use factory. I can tell the difference between a nice, clean, shiny once or even three or four times fired case and a thing that has gone through a few years of storage or use.

When I collect mine I just grab anything that is in front of my hand, even the aluminum. I sort it all out and discard any non american brass, keeping only rem fed win. If that doesn't look clean as a whistle, well, it goes into the bucket too.

[BBarn]

"Once Fired" is perhaps thrown around too loosely. I simply look at anything but new brass as previously fired.

Some guns are hard on brass, to the point where one firing is about it. So I consider any brass that's not new in need of inspection and work before possible reuse anyway.

If loading high pressure cartridges to Max charges I generally only use new brass or brass of known history.

[Nick_C_S]

I'm not a fan of the term. Especially when it refers to brass purchased as "once fired."

The only brass I call "once fired" is from what I actually fired. That is, factory ammo (purchased from Midway USA by the case, or from a reputable sporting goods store like Sportsmen's Warehouse, etc.) that I fired myself and collected immediately.

For the record, I almost always shoot semi-autos when my range first opens for the day; and I'm often the only one in the area. Plus, I know the headstamps of what I'm firing. If I go during more busy hours, I bring a revolver - which I prefer to shoot anyway, so . . .

[reddog81]

Most reputable dealers will tel you the source of the brass and hopefully you can use some common sense to determine how likely all the brass they are selling is once fired. I'm not sure what kind of study you are asking about.

I've bought used brass from various sources over the years. Can I 100% verify its once fired? No. But you can inspect it and get a reasonable assurance that's it's safe. I've bought a couple decent sized lots of .30-06, 45 ACP and 38 Special and always feel like I've gotten a fair deal. I've got 30+ reloads on some .357 brass. I'd be willing to bet none of the brass I've purchased has seen that kind of use prior to me purchasing it.

[jmorris]

Can anyone direct me to a scientific study on "once fired brass"?

No study needed, someone fired it once, with some load that you have no idea what it was.

“Once fired” brass is also commonly known as “at least, once fired brass”. So your results may very...,

[Marco Califo]

Military with crimped primers is the only sure way to know you are getting once, and only once, fired. And I will only by that from http://www.gibrass.com/ or https://www.brassbombers.com/main.sc
556 LC is the real deal (best available price/quality) in my opinion.
I like 7.62 military brass, but, since the only 7.62 USGI weapons are now machine guns, the brass is once fired and puffed to sloppy MG chambers. It can be difficult to size the first time, but I find white lithium grease makes that easy. And they need to be trimmed often. And you need to sort them. Weighing into like groups also helps reduce the variations.

Everything else is range pick-up, which I believe to be a more factual term. You will not get homogeneous brass. Examine it carefully and toss the ones that show wear.

This place sells mixed range pickup from indoor ranges, cheap:
http://www.precisiononcefiredbrass.com/
They also have frequent three for two specials 3,000 45 ACP for the price of 2,000 = $79.95, but they add another $30 for shipping.

I have bought some 40 S&W nickel plated brass, that was all mostly all one brand. It was great clean looking brass that I believe was LE range ammo. It cost more than that place above.

[FrankenMauser]

Even if you are opening what you believe to be a box of factory ammo that you bought at a gun show - are you prepared to guarantee that the brass you've just picked up after ending a target is once fired? Or was that box of Winchester just some very clean reloads that vendor just made a good margin on?

"Ending a target"?

What I can't seem to figure out is what people imagine is so all-fired "magical" about the term once fired brass?

Sure - I'll give you that brass does have a limited lifespan and the more it's been shot the more metal fatigue and stress fractures are an issue.

With that said, however, there is some range brass I won't reload once - BLAZER - because of the poor quality of the brass they use and the number of supposed once fired blazer brass that's fractured. I say this having a good number of blazer range brass with some pretty profound cracks in my pile of teaching brass to show folks what to reject when you're reloading.

Blazer brass is made on the same equipment as Federal, FC (also Federal), and Speer.
If you think Blazer is crap, then you had better reconsider your opinion of the other head stamps, as well.

And then there's some FEDERAL and REMINGTON brass in my " collection " that I'm certain I've fired at least 4 or 5 times and will likely fire a few more times before it gets retired.

Umm....
See previous statement.

So I don't buy into this whole myth of " once fired brass " in pistol ammo.

Umm... Yea... Same story, man. Blazer brass is made with the same materials, on the same equipment as FC, Federal, and Speer brass.
Perhaps you should reset your perspective and take another look...?

Rifle's another story.

And I can't say that I put any faith in anyone else telling me a shell has been "once fired" than I trust anyone who says that "surgical stainless" is actually a thing - because it isn't - it's a marketing term.....

So anyone who sites " once fired brass " - I have to wonder what else they're going to try to sell me....

If you've got a bona fide link to a verified well supported scientific study - I'd like to see it.

Apply for a grant. Let us know how that turns out.

Til then - the phrase " once fired brass " is a relatively unverifiable meaningless term to my ears.

I'm FAR more impressed my the headstamp on the shell and my personal experience having made and fired thousands of reloads in .40 S&W.

Impressed by headstamps?
Try "FC", "Federal", and "Speer" while looking at your "Blazer"...

[higgite]

"Once fired" brass doesn't bother me all that much, but I do lose sleep over bullets used in .223 Rem cartridges being .224" in diameter.

[buck460XVR]

I have brass I have bought new, and used it once. No scientific study needed, it's once fired.

Other than than, to me it's no different than the phrase "used car". You don't know if it's been beaten since it left the lot new or it's been driven with kid gloves. It's a buyer beware. Lots of things in life more prone for me to get upset about.

[Mobuck]

"Even if you are opening what you believe to be a box of factory ammo that you bought at a gun show - are you prepared to guarantee that the brass you've just picked up after ending a target is once fired? Or was that box of Winchester just some very clean reloads that vendor just made a good margin on?"

Don't buy ammo at a gun show--there are no guarantees of anything claimed.

"What I can't seem to figure out is what people imagine is so all-fired "magical" about the term once fired brass?"

It's like buying a low mileage used car--someone else already took the "drive it off the dealer's lot" depreciation hit.

[JeepHammer]

To get true 'Once Fired' milbrass, simply order with primer (and crimp) still intact.
I buy milbrass directly from the military bases, all have primer/primer crimp in place.
This will be NATO head stamp (cross in circle), will not have caliber on head stamp.

I buy brass from civilian government gun ranges also, most government issued brass has crimped primers.
Again, simply order with primer & crimp still in place, this guarantees it's once fired.

Civilian government production (Homeland Security) will *Usually* have a civilian caliber (.223 instead of NATO 5.56), but will most times have a crimped primer.

'White Box' or 'Brown Box' ammo from gun shows is usually a very small producer.
Here today, gone tomorrow, usually made from the cheapest components they can find.
Lots of factory second bullets, second hand bulk gunpowder they can't verify, usually from very old military 'Tear Down' ammo.
Questionable components all the way around, but the gunpowder in particular is a concern to me, and probably should be to anyone buying said ammo...

Keep in mind...
When you load ammo for civilian resale, you are supposed to be permitted & licenced by the federal government, carry product liability insurance, etc.
These people do not bother with 'Trivial' things like quality control, product liability insurance, federal compliance, they won't ever see you again so they just don't care what happens to you or your firearms...

I won't sell a loaded round. Period.
I sell bulk milbrass with as much (or as little) processing as the customer wants.
Anything and everything I do to the brass will be in compliance with SAAMI specification. Period.

*IF* someone wants a 'Special Order' that is not SAAMI specification (5.56/.223 cut/resized for .300AAC/BO for instance) then the customer will have to sign a contract/hold harmless stating they know EXACTLY what they are ordering/receiving.

Above all else, any production ammo MUST BE SAFE!
Secondary to that, the ammo MUST run in 100% of same chambered firearms.
When I load ammo for private use, I go as far as to weigh each round as part of final QC inspection.
There is no way I want something I produce to squib or be way overcharged, so a weight inspection is required.
There is a reason commercial ammo costs what it does, and why 'Generic' gun show ammo is a bad idea...

Now, fervent flaming rebuttal from the guys trying to justify cutting corners & producing an inferior product...

[rodfac]

No study needed, someone fired it once, with some load that you have no idea what it was. “Once fired” brass is also commonly known as “at least, once fired brass”. So your results may very...,

Excellent comment by JMorris. Is it really, "once fired", if not, you're holding hands and trusting your eyes to every Tom, Dick & Harry who's previously loaded it with who knows what. The only guy I'd buy brass from commercial sources is Jeff Bartlett of GIBrass. I know him personally and trust him implicitly. Rod

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

I label used brass in two categories. Those new cartridge brass I've shot once and others who have given me their brass stating (it) fired once. Such brass is indeed. Once fired.

Everything else yellow brass I happen to pick up has little value I not knowing its previous firing history. Such unknown brass are simply cleaned and mildly reloaded for target shooting and are considered my: " bound for the ground" i.e. give-a-ways after two or three firings re-reloadable or not.

[Unclenick]

Once-fired, as mentioned, is usually military surplus and the crimp will be intact. Pull down's, as Jeff Bartlett often sells, are never-fired and should be as good as any new brass.

But if your source is selling you mixed commercial headstamps, there is no way to know how many times a case may have been reloaded. These are usually what I call Range Foundlings or Range Brass that came from the seller's own range or that he picked up from local ranges. The problem with that brass is that while it is usually commercial ammo brass left by a non-reloader, I know of several shooters who are not clean-up conscious and who leave their brass at the range whenever they decide it's time to retire it. They are too lazy or too old to go to the effort to pick it up to take to the scrapyard. Or they will save up the brass that has just one more load cycle or two left to load it to shoot at an indoor range that doesn't allow brass policing. There, it becomes that guy's pickup brass to resell as "once-fired".

Below are two .308 range foundlings I sectioned. You can see that one appears to be used and reused, though possibly by neck sizing-only or in a very snug chamber as there is no pressure ring thinning, while the other was probably once-fired. Both could be used again, though I would re-ream the internal donut out of the upper one and likely anneal the neck.

The main reason to care if you are buying truly once-fired brass is just the likely number of additional load cycles you can expect for your money. If you get something previously reloaded several times, you may get little to no reloading cycle life before necks start to split or incipient head separation commences.

If you have your own personally picked up range foundlings, any load cycle life at all is found money, so there's no point in looking that gift horse in the mouth. You just don't want to be paying full once-fired price for cases that have had ten reloadings already.

[jmorris]

To get true 'Once Fired' milbrass, simply order with primer (and crimp) still intact.
I buy milbrass directly from the military bases, all have primer/primer crimp in place.

This is true. You can also buy .223 blanks and convert them to 300 blk, that stuff is for sure once fired as well.

[Unclenick]

Jmorris,

I've seen several posts by fellows who had evidence that blanks had been made with extra thin brass (during wartime) or a cheaper alloy that didn't hold up to normal peak pressures. What have you found in this regard? Do you weigh them after any necessary trimming to see if they have enough metal in them? I've never had occasion to section one.

[Brian Pfleuger]

I think there's some intentional deception implying that "Once Fired" means "fired one time".

"Once" can have several meanings, one of which is essentially "previously" or "in the past".

So, "once fired", could be "fired one time" or just "previously fired".

Sure, it's supposed to, by sort of common agreement, mean "fired one time" but I think lots of sellers would rather play off the assumptions of the buyer than actually care if the brass has been used 1 or 2 or 5 times.

[Nick_C_S]

Heh, the stuff we loaders find interesting

I just received 1000 pcs of 45 ACP+P brass from Starline. My favorite (and most expensive) way to acquire brass. It's zero-fired

I'm repeating, but the only brass I consider "once fired" is if I fired factory ammo and collected the brass.

I do have a big exception: A fellow range shooter I know well gave me a 5gal bucket full of his once-fired 38 Special brass. This was about 2 years ago (I posted about it; under "Bonanza!.") Anyway, I know for a fact that he buys all factory ammo, doesn't load, and collected his brass. I've known this guy from the range for years and have watched him shoot a good amount of this factory ammo. It was once-fired. I talked to him about loading his own and he said he doesn't mind just buying it (looking out in the parking lot, I see his new high-end Mercedes - I'm thinking he's done quite well in life.) About 80% of it was "GECO" stamped. So now I have thousands of these; so it follows that's all I use for my 38's now. It's good brass; so it seems anyway.

Everything else, is "range pick up." And yes, most would certainly appear to be once fired, but I do not consider it so - they go into the regular rotation of their mixed headstamp kind. Side note: I don't go out of my way to collect range pick up. Stuff just happens.

This is where revolvers have a distinct advantage IMO. For starters, these days, revolver brass is almost never available as range pick up (not that I would). Therefore, these days, my only source for revolver brass is from factory ammo or purchased new brass (usually Starline, but sometimes Winchester or R-P). I think this is a good thing. Because of this, my revolver brass is only a few different headstamps. So for 38, and often 357, I sort/load like headstamps.

[mikld]

At one time, the term "once fired" did mean fired just one time. I believe it originated from vendors that had access to military fired brass, indeed fired just one time. Now the term has morphed into a phrase meaning "used". I have stopped thinking of "once fired" brass being fired just one time and think "used" and take my chances. I have purchased a lot of used brass and rarely have any problems. BTW, I only buy one kind of ammo, that's factory ammo and from a store, never a gun show and I reload 99% of everything I shoot...'

[T. O'Heir]

"...a scientific study on "once fired brass"?..." To prove or disprove what?
The only way to be 100% sure of any case being fired only once is to fire the factory round yourself.
Factory ammo has different coloured primers than those a reloader can buy.
"..."range pick up."..." Is 100% unknown. You have no idea what has been done to it, how many times or with what load(s).
+P brass is stamped with that so the workies in the factory don't mix the loaded ammo with non +P ammo. There is no difference between standard brass and +P brass.

[thallub]

Most of my .223/5.56mm and .308/7.62mm brass is US military. The primer crimp is evidence the brass was fired once. Most comes from firing ranges. Sometimes make some nice once fired 5.56mm brass by shooting TW or LC that i have on hand.

[NWPilgrim]

There are definitely several reputable online sellers of .mil and LE brass that is still crimped so truly once-fired. I've bought a few batches of .556 LC brass that is excellent.

I have no problem picking up handgun caliber cases at the range. Just like my own store bought ammo cases I shoot them until the case shows signs of cracking or splitting. And they are free so if I get just one reload it is still a plus.