Sheepdog Tackles Man With Gun...

Double Naught Spy · January 22, 2015, 08:18 AM

...only the man with the gun is a licensed CCW and the sheepdog is an idiot.

Michael Foster apparently spotted Clarence Daniels' gun while in the parking lot and followed Daniels into Wal-Mart where he implemented a less than perfect takedown of Daniels. Foster was aided by several other do-gooders who helped to disarm Daniels and remove the gun from the immediate area and keep Daniels pinned down.

During the event, Foster is yelling "He has a gun!" and Daniels is yelling that he has a license for it.

Foster was charged for the battery.

Several lessons here. If you carry concealed, make sure it stays concealed.

Situational awareness is important. I doubt most people would realize they are about to be attacked while entering a Wal-Mart, however. As with any use of force situation, if you get involved, you better get it right. It doesn't matter that you are being a sheepdog and trying to save the world if you attack the wrong person. Foster is lucky that Daniels was old(er, aged 62), apparently not well trained, and completely not expecting the attack or Foster may have been injured or killed as a result of his attempted choke hold. Daniels is lucky Foster didn't severely injure him. They are both lucky nobody got shot during the disarming and hot-potato gun handling that went on afterwards.

http://www.wtsp.com/story/news/local...mart/22067325/

http://tbo.com/news/crime/deputies-m...apon-20150120/

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publics...te-for/2214432

Youtube version of video for when the news links die.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-c...-ts=1421782837

aarondhgraham · January 22, 2015, 09:03 AM

That's scary.

The sheepdog is only charged with battery?

I would have thought Assault and Battery.

Aarond

.

DaleA · January 22, 2015, 10:11 AM

In answer to a statement in another thread about concealed means concealed I CAN see the following situation:

If you're going to a lot of places and some allow guns and some do not you might be put into the position of having to unholster and reholster your gun. Usually this is much easier if you are standing up...in the future if I ever have to do this I guess I'll try to do it while seated in the car and put it in the lock box and hope no one like the guy in the story sees me through the window when I take it out of the box and reholster it.

In my state (MN) I have no doubt whatsoever that the anti-gun folk will turn this story around and say it is another argument for NOT allowing concealed carry.

mehavey · January 22, 2015, 10:16 AM

There's a reason God invented the word "concealed."
In today's world, keep it that way...
and don't bother try to "educate" sheep by display.

KyJim · January 22, 2015, 10:17 AM

As I had mentioned in the other (locked) thread, it underscores for me the advantage of carrying concealed over open carry. There's less agitation to the public and it makes the CCL holder less of a target for do-gooders and thieves alike.

mehavey · January 22, 2015, 10:32 AM

I just looked at the video....
I'd call this 'careless' concealed rather than open display.
http://www.ijreview.com/2015/01/2369...ENSORED-=Crime

Again... in today's world, a bit of care for effect on the sheep is a consideration.
(BTW: Had the guy been in a sportcoat & tie, I doubt anyone would have blinked
even if they had seen it. And frankly had it been full & open carry, it's also unlikely
it would have elicited the reaction.)

It's a total package problem

Double Naught Spy · January 22, 2015, 10:33 AM

But Daniels WAS carrying concealed. He just got spotted.

psalm7 · January 22, 2015, 10:55 AM

I see folk open carrying here every day and have never heard of anyone jumping on them . Also there is being concerned and beong stupid . We all see something that might concern us from time to time .

thallub · January 22, 2015, 11:22 AM

IMO: The so called "sheepdog" is an idiot. This comment from the sheriff's office says it all.

"As Daniels entered the store, a label for the coffee creamer in his pocket in case he forgot the brand, Foster tackled him to the ground and placed him in a choke hold, sheriff's spokesman Larry McKinnon said.

..................................................................................................

"Unfortunately he tackled a guy that was a law-abiding citizen," McKinnon said. "We understand it's alarming for people to see other people with guns, but Florida has a large population of concealed weapons permit holders."

Now comes the civil lawsuit.

besafe2 · January 22, 2015, 11:38 AM

I agree with above, this so called "sheep dog" is a idiot.

zincwarrior · January 22, 2015, 12:08 PM

1. Calling this guy a sheepdog is insulting to my half caucasian mountain dog. he demands recompense in the form of fajita steak. He's not picky-he'll take either chicken or beef.

2. Note the bystanders who eventually start helping the putz. Yea I'd be suing them too.

3. The good thing is no one got killed. Attacking someone with a gun from behind is an excellent way for bad things to happen really fast.

Snyper · January 22, 2015, 04:53 PM

Quote:

I would have thought Assault and Battery.

That may well be the actual charge since it's not possible to have "battery" (contact) without an "assault" (attack)

I don't pay too much attention to the precise wording in these types of stories since reporters often get things wrong

KyJim · January 22, 2015, 05:08 PM

In my state, it is called assault in the criminal statute even though it is equivalent to the tort of battery at common law. I don't know what it is called in the Florida criminal statute.

WyMark · January 22, 2015, 05:41 PM

I won't be too surprised to see federal civil rights charges filed as well. Foster witnessed Daniels in the act of AWB - Armed While Black - and concluded that a crime was about to be committed.

**Aguila Blanca** · January 23, 2015, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaleA

In my state (MN) I have no doubt whatsoever that the anti-gun folk will turn this story around and say it is another argument for NOT allowing concealed carry.

Or it's another argument for legalizing open carry everywhere, so people will be less inclined to freak out when they see a "citizen" carrying (wearing) a sidearm.

I hope Mr. Sheepdog gets a stiff fine and some jail time. The older gentleman could have been seriously injured by Mr. Sheepdog's idiotic little stunt. He might just as well have rushed around the parking lot and tackled some soccer mom as she was getting into her car. "Look out! She's got a car!"

jmhyer · January 23, 2015, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Or it's another argument for legalizing open carry everywhere, so people will be less inclined to freak out when they see a "citizen" carrying (wearing) a sidearm.

That's pretty much what my state has done...though I'm still not one to advocate for open carry as being generally a good idea for those who wish to carry.

TLeo · January 23, 2015, 08:56 AM

This guy is not a "sheepdog". He's just an idiot "do gooder" who lacks the sense to properly assess a situation. He saw a weapon and freaked out and impulsively acted without any consideration for the consequences and is very lucky the victim did not react by shooting him or some of the other people joining in. Someone else may have reacted by shooting this idiot and would have been totally justified in acting to defend himself from what he could very easily perceive as a threat to his life when some nut is choking him without warning. I'm afraid that with all the idiot anti gun hysteria/propaganda these days this sort of thing has made some folks just lose all ability to think.

jimbob86 · January 23, 2015, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Foster was charged for the battery.

Good. Maybe that'll be a lesson for all to mind their own business: That which "neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg ....."

olddav · January 23, 2015, 09:43 AM

If I were Mr. Daniels I would pursue charges against Mr. Foster. If for no other reason than to make a clear point, gun does not equal criminal! As someone already said, Mr. Foster is lucky no one was shot or injured during his misguided attempt at heroism.

psalm7 · January 23, 2015, 10:20 AM

I understand the uninformed seeing someone slip a handgun under thier Tshirt and going into a store would think the worst but did he call the Police ?
Open and conceled carry is allowed in TN with a permit . There is a push for open carry for any firearm owner without a permit but I dont see the Nashvile politicians going for it with thier Big outside $$ may not like it mentality . Thier to worried about what the New York and West Coast investors want to be concerned about the locals .

**4V50 Gary** · January 23, 2015, 10:27 AM

Well intentioned but handled poorly.

Kimio · January 23, 2015, 10:33 AM

Psalm

According to the articles, no, he did not call the police, nor did he inform any Walmart employees.

He only called the police AFTER the fact.

mehavey · January 23, 2015, 10:34 AM

I prefer Gary's (+1) take.
We love to always say "...when seconds count..."
He rolled the dice on what he perceived as immediate threat and they fell the wrong way.

Jim567 · January 23, 2015, 11:11 AM

The man ( sheepdog ) lacked judgement and common sense.
That is all.
Dollars to donuts he is a hot headed bully no one would want for a neighbor and especially would not want to be seated next to in a football game..
The video was very disturbing to me.

The above being said --- conceal well. Any one wee seemingly inconsequential action can have escalating consequences

BobCat45 · January 23, 2015, 11:39 AM

Not to push the racial component to the exclusion of other factors, but it is very important.

I think what WyMark said in post 14 needs to be reiterated. The CHL holder was black, the idiot was white, and he freaked and attacked when he saw a black man with a concealed (maybe poorly concealed) handgun.

The OP also noted that the CHL holder was a little short on situational awareness to be taken off guard, but I can't criticize him; I'm not perfect either.

January 22, 2015, 08:18 AM	#1
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,716	Sheepdog Tackles Man With Gun... ...only the man with the gun is a licensed CCW and the sheepdog is an idiot. Michael Foster apparently spotted Clarence Daniels' gun while in the parking lot and followed Daniels into Wal-Mart where he implemented a less than perfect takedown of Daniels. Foster was aided by several other do-gooders who helped to disarm Daniels and remove the gun from the immediate area and keep Daniels pinned down. During the event, Foster is yelling "He has a gun!" and Daniels is yelling that he has a license for it. Foster was charged for the battery. Several lessons here. If you carry concealed, make sure it stays concealed. Situational awareness is important. I doubt most people would realize they are about to be attacked while entering a Wal-Mart, however. As with any use of force situation, if you get involved, you better get it right. It doesn't matter that you are being a sheepdog and trying to save the world if you attack the wrong person. Foster is lucky that Daniels was old(er, aged 62), apparently not well trained, and completely not expecting the attack or Foster may have been injured or killed as a result of his attempted choke hold. Daniels is lucky Foster didn't severely injure him. They are both lucky nobody got shot during the disarming and hot-potato gun handling that went on afterwards. http://www.wtsp.com/story/news/local...mart/22067325/ http://tbo.com/news/crime/deputies-m...apon-20150120/ http://www.tampabay.com/news/publics...te-for/2214432 Youtube version of video for when the news links die. https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-c...-ts=1421782837 __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange Last edited by Double Naught Spy; January 22, 2015 at 08:24 AM.

January 22, 2015, 09:03 AM	#2
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 8,638	Wow,,, That's scary. The sheepdog is only charged with battery? I would have thought Assault and Battery. Aarond . __________________ Never ever give an enemy the advantage of a verbal threat. Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)

January 22, 2015, 10:33 AM	#7
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,716	But Daniels WAS carrying concealed. He just got spotted. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

January 22, 2015, 11:38 AM	#10
besafe2 Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2008 Location: NC Posts: 117	I agree with above, this so called "sheep dog" is a idiot. __________________ "Blessed be the Lord my strength,which teacheth my hands to war and my fingers to fight". Psalm 144:1 KJV Be safe: Paul

January 22, 2015, 05:41 PM	#14
WyMark Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2011 Location: Wyoming Posts: 647	I won't be too surprised to see federal civil rights charges filed as well. Foster witnessed Daniels in the act of AWB - Armed While Black - and concluded that a crime was about to be committed. Last edited by WyMark; January 23, 2015 at 02:31 PM.

January 22, 2015, 10:11 AM	#3
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,310	In answer to a statement in another thread about concealed means concealed I CAN see the following situation: If you're going to a lot of places and some allow guns and some do not you might be put into the position of having to unholster and reholster your gun. Usually this is much easier if you are standing up...in the future if I ever have to do this I guess I'll try to do it while seated in the car and put it in the lock box and hope no one like the guy in the story sees me through the window when I take it out of the box and reholster it. In my state (MN) I have no doubt whatsoever that the anti-gun folk will turn this story around and say it is another argument for NOT allowing concealed carry.

January 22, 2015, 10:16 AM	#4
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,882	There's a reason God invented the word "concealed." In today's world, keep it that way... and don't bother try to "educate" sheep by display.

January 22, 2015, 10:17 AM	#5
KyJim Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2005 Location: The Bluegrass Posts: 9,142	As I had mentioned in the other (locked) thread, it underscores for me the advantage of carrying concealed over open carry. There's less agitation to the public and it makes the CCL holder less of a target for do-gooders and thieves alike.

January 22, 2015, 10:32 AM	#6
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,882	I just looked at the video.... I'd call this 'careless' concealed rather than open display. http://www.ijreview.com/2015/01/2369...ENSORED-=Crime Again... in today's world, a bit of care for effect on the sheep is a consideration. (BTW: Had the guy been in a sportcoat & tie, I doubt anyone would have blinked even if they had seen it. And frankly had it been full & open carry, it's also unlikely it would have elicited the reaction.) It's a total package problem

January 22, 2015, 10:55 AM	#8
psalm7 Senior Member Join Date: March 7, 2014 Location: Middle TN Posts: 543	I see folk open carrying here every day and have never heard of anyone jumping on them . Also there is being concerned and beong stupid . We all see something that might concern us from time to time .

January 22, 2015, 11:22 AM	#9
thallub Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2007 Location: South Western OK Posts: 3,112	IMO: The so called "sheepdog" is an idiot. This comment from the sheriff's office says it all. "As Daniels entered the store, a label for the coffee creamer in his pocket in case he forgot the brand, Foster tackled him to the ground and placed him in a choke hold, sheriff's spokesman Larry McKinnon said. .................................................................................................. "Unfortunately he tackled a guy that was a law-abiding citizen," McKinnon said. "We understand it's alarming for people to see other people with guns, but Florida has a large population of concealed weapons permit holders." Now comes the civil lawsuit.

January 22, 2015, 12:08 PM	#11
zincwarrior Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2011 Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex Posts: 2,259	1. Calling this guy a sheepdog is insulting to my half caucasian mountain dog. he demands recompense in the form of fajita steak. He's not picky-he'll take either chicken or beef. 2. Note the bystanders who eventually start helping the putz. Yea I'd be suing them too. 3. The good thing is no one got killed. Attacking someone with a gun from behind is an excellent way for bad things to happen really fast.

January 22, 2015, 05:08 PM	#13
KyJim Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2005 Location: The Bluegrass Posts: 9,142	In my state, it is called assault in the criminal statute even though it is equivalent to the tort of battery at common law. I don't know what it is called in the Florida criminal statute.

January 23, 2015, 08:56 AM	#17
TLeo Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2009 Location: NC Posts: 254	This guy is not a "sheepdog". He's just an idiot "do gooder" who lacks the sense to properly assess a situation. He saw a weapon and freaked out and impulsively acted without any consideration for the consequences and is very lucky the victim did not react by shooting him or some of the other people joining in. Someone else may have reacted by shooting this idiot and would have been totally justified in acting to defend himself from what he could very easily perceive as a threat to his life when some nut is choking him without warning. I'm afraid that with all the idiot anti gun hysteria/propaganda these days this sort of thing has made some folks just lose all ability to think.

January 23, 2015, 09:43 AM	#19
olddav Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2008 Location: Lower Alabama Posts: 727	If I were Mr. Daniels I would pursue charges against Mr. Foster. If for no other reason than to make a clear point, gun does not equal criminal! As someone already said, Mr. Foster is lucky no one was shot or injured during his misguided attempt at heroism. __________________ Never beat your head against the wall with out a helmet

January 23, 2015, 10:20 AM	#20
psalm7 Senior Member Join Date: March 7, 2014 Location: Middle TN Posts: 543	I understand the uninformed seeing someone slip a handgun under thier Tshirt and going into a store would think the worst but did he call the Police ? Open and conceled carry is allowed in TN with a permit . There is a push for open carry for any firearm owner without a permit but I dont see the Nashvile politicians going for it with thier Big outside $$ may not like it mentality . Thier to worried about what the New York and West Coast investors want to be concerned about the locals .

January 23, 2015, 10:27 AM	#21
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,829	Well intentioned but handled poorly. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

January 23, 2015, 10:33 AM	#22
Kimio Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2011 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,171	Psalm According to the articles, no, he did not call the police, nor did he inform any Walmart employees. He only called the police AFTER the fact.

January 23, 2015, 10:34 AM	#23
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,882	I prefer Gary's (+1) take. We love to always say "...when seconds count..." He rolled the dice on what he perceived as immediate threat and they fell the wrong way. Last edited by mehavey; January 23, 2015 at 10:42 AM.

January 23, 2015, 11:11 AM	#24
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	The man ( sheepdog ) lacked judgement and common sense. That is all. Dollars to donuts he is a hot headed bully no one would want for a neighbor and especially would not want to be seated next to in a football game.. The video was very disturbing to me. The above being said --- conceal well. Any one wee seemingly inconsequential action can have escalating consequences

January 23, 2015, 11:39 AM	#25
BobCat45 Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Location: East Bernard, TX Posts: 523	Not to push the racial component to the exclusion of other factors, but it is very important. I think what WyMark said in post 14 needs to be reiterated. The CHL holder was black, the idiot was white, and he freaked and attacked when he saw a black man with a concealed (maybe poorly concealed) handgun. The OP also noted that the CHL holder was a little short on situational awareness to be taken off guard, but I can't criticize him; I'm not perfect either.

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