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November 12, 2017, 09:40 PM | #1 |
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Is Big Bullet Technology Dead?
The .45 ACP an .44 Special work by mostly creating large permeate wound cavities by just being big ass bullets.
Have expanding bullets finally made big bullets obsolete? |
November 12, 2017, 09:43 PM | #2 |
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The major ammo manufacturers are applying the same advances in bullet technology and design to .44 and .45 caliber bullets as they are to 9mm and .40 caliber bullets. I don't perceive any distinction between calibers that would even hint that "big bullet" technology is dead, or that there even exists something that might be classified as "big bullet technology."
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November 12, 2017, 09:45 PM | #3 |
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Zorro,
Not a chance. The .45 ACP will outlast the 9MM. One word: momentum! |
November 12, 2017, 11:35 PM | #4 |
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Given the choice, I will choose the broadsword over the icepick.
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All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
November 13, 2017, 12:26 AM | #5 | |
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Quote:
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November 13, 2017, 12:34 AM | #6 | |
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I will put the terminal performance of the .45acp and especially the .44 special upside any handgun cartridges with the exception of the really high performance bigbore hunting cartridges. I like the 9mm fine, own a bunch of them...but it WILL NOT outperform a bigbore cartridge. And, if you think it will...just take it to the hunting woods and you will quickly learn differently. That ain't a gel test...that is real world flesh and bones. It is not human flesh and bone...but it is a lot closer than ballistic gelatin is. Last edited by shootniron; November 13, 2017 at 12:53 AM. |
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November 13, 2017, 12:37 AM | #7 |
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The FBI says the 9mm is the most effective handgun caliber now.
So.. is it? The one thing the .45 has is it never fails because of non-expanding bullet. It is just a big bullet. |
November 13, 2017, 12:52 AM | #8 | |
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By no means is the 9mm the most effective handgun cartridge. It will never beat the .357 Magnum or even the 10mm or .357 Sig.
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November 13, 2017, 01:01 AM | #9 |
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More bad guys are wearing body armor. I’m training my folks to work on Pelvis shots.
I carry a .45. I, personally, feel a .45 will do more damage to big bone structures. That’s just my opinion. My “gut” feeling. I own 9mm’s and 357 Sigs that I carry off duty. Any decent caliber will do what needs to be done most of the time. |
November 13, 2017, 01:09 AM | #10 | |
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To some extent, this is the story of firearms. As firearm technology improves, the need to use big, heavy bullets has been reduced.
Looking back to the days of hunting with blackpowder rifles in Africa, it wasn't terribly uncommon for people to be using rifles with ball projectiles that were a significant fraction of a pound in weight. Dr. Samuel Baker used a 2 Bore rifle he referred to as "Baby". A 2 bore rifle shoots a lead ball that weighs 3,500 grains. That's 8 ounces--half a pound. Talk about momentum! Dr. Baker reported that it was not uncommon to get a nosebleed after firing "Baby" due to the tremendous recoil. Advances in smokeless powder, and then later in bullet technology have improved the situation to where it is not necessary to shoot a half pound projectile with a diameter of 1.33 inches in order to get the desired terminal effect, even on very large African game. Does that mean that those new rounds are more effective than Baby's half pound lead balls? Probably not, but they are more than adequate and have lots of other advantages. We're still seeing a progression of technology, albeit much slower than it was in the days of the transition from blackpowder and lead bullets to smokeless powder and jacketed bullets. But technology marches on. Quote:
The key to understanding this is to understand that their performance criteria creates a pass/fail threshold. They aren't testing all the available calibers out there to assign them ranks and picking them based on the rank, they are testing the various calibers to see if they pass the performance tests. Any caliber that passes the test is then considered for selection based on the other parameters which are affected by caliber selection. Things like firearm size, agent shooting performance, capacity, training costs, firearm costs, etc.
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November 13, 2017, 09:27 AM | #11 | |||
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Does 45 ACP have more ballistic performance than 9mm? Sure. Is that difference very dramatic? In my opinion no.
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Know the status of your weapon Keep your muzzle oriented so that no one will be hurt if the firearm discharges Keep your finger off the trigger until you have an adequate sight picture Maintain situational awareness Last edited by TunnelRat; November 13, 2017 at 09:45 AM. |
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November 13, 2017, 09:56 AM | #12 | |
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November 13, 2017, 10:31 AM | #13 | |
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November 13, 2017, 12:05 PM | #14 |
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I read a review of a new 9mm round, and the author actually said, "Even if it expands to only .45", it's as effective as .45 hardball."
Uhhhh, there's always a chance that the 9mm won't expand at all, while the .45 is never going to shrink. Other than marksmanship, the most important factor is penetration, and I'll take my chances with a 230gr slug over anything that weighs half as much. If a bureaucrat decided what round I have to carry, then I'd be stuck with whatever is issued, but I get to make the call, and I have carried 15+1 9mms, and 6+1 .45s, feeling well-armed with either.
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November 13, 2017, 12:12 PM | #15 | |
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Note that the 9mm, which failed in the Miami shootout met every spec the FBI had at the time, including gel test penetration. And, it still got the blame for "failing". As far as I'm concerned, the FBI's recommendation(s) mean nothing to me, and should be looked at carefully by any and everyone outside the FBI, to see how well they apply to what you are doing, not just blindly adopted on faith because the FBI is "infallible". They aren't.
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All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
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November 13, 2017, 12:26 PM | #16 |
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I think the people who cite military or federal government procurement procedures as the reasons for holding opinions, about this or that, have never been in the military or worked for the federal government.
There are whole books written about how stupid and often corrupt it is. One would think that knowing the history it would be completely different today. It isn't. Like economics, more often than not the result is given to the authors before they start, and the whole "study" is noting more than a justification to get to the predetermined result. Everyone who has served has probably has heard the phrase, "Your equipment was chosen for you based on the lowest bid." We'd actually probably be in better shape if that was the only criterion, and not who plays golf, who offers the best junkets, or is a second cousin of The Senator. |
November 13, 2017, 12:28 PM | #17 |
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Zorro,
Do you just make up stuff to support your opinion? Give me just one credible source that proves the the FBI Firearms Unit at Quantico has proclaimed that the 9MM is more effective than the .45 ACP. Just one. You'll destroy your credibility when you post opinion as fact. |
November 13, 2017, 12:43 PM | #18 | |
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When at the range I will shoot some .45 first and then switch to 9mm. Those bullets look positively tiny after loading magazines with .45 ACP. There are occasions (very cold) I may strap on my 4.2" Ruger Redhawk in .45 Colt with my own reloads consisting large meplat 255 grain wadcutters. This cartridge is loaded with 10.0 grains of Unique. I forget the velocity but it knocks steel plates down right now. |
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November 13, 2017, 01:13 PM | #19 |
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They make big bullets that expand too; 9mm wasn't enhanced at the exclusion of others, as some may be led to think.
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Strive to carry the handgun you would want anywhere, everywhere; forget that good area bullcrap. "Wouldn't want to / Nobody volunteer to" get shot by _____ is not indicative of quickly incapacitating. |
November 13, 2017, 01:24 PM | #20 |
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Okay. I'll play Devil's advocate here along with TunnelRat...
9mm > all else for self defense for the most part. Why is this? Capacity and recoil in conjunction with equal to sometimes even better bullet ballistics against the 45 or 40S&W? And you have a clear winner. That's usually why 9mm is in much higher praises these days. Yes, the same bullet technology applies to the other bigger calibers, but the light and fast moving 9mm still penetrates deeper that the others with a comparable or equal load. That's another short coming of some of the bigger service bores. I'm leaving revolver loads out, cause those are a beast on a whole other level. So, go back a few decades where JHPs were sub-par and FMJs were in a majority of guns. 15+1 in an M9 or P229 versus a 7 or 8 +1 in a 1911? I think I would have also considered the 1911 back then. Bigger bullets, no shallow landings in human flesh because the JHPs were crappy anyways. Sure! I'm not sorry, but today. 9mm wins hands down for a myriad of reasons. Take a class and check out some autopsies and ER reports of a non-gun guy doctor. The results are astonishingly in favor of the 9mm. |
November 13, 2017, 01:50 PM | #21 | |
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"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange |
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November 13, 2017, 02:04 PM | #22 |
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For what it is worth and it's not worth much -
I was shooting steel targets at 25 yards with my 9MM and my .45 the other day. The 9mm was just putting the steel targets down. The .45 was putting them down with noticeable authority. Was watching a demonstration. 9MM would penetrate any WW2 helmet. The .45 would not. Heck of a dent though. |
November 13, 2017, 02:06 PM | #23 |
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The Miami shootout always comes up with this topic. We could have an entire thread devoted to that event and the lessons learned and not learned as a result. I encourage folks to read an account on it and I also think there's a passable tv clip on YouTube from a made for tv movie that covers the event. Watch it and decide for yourself. To me the handgun caliber in use was not the crux of the issue.
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Know the status of your weapon Keep your muzzle oriented so that no one will be hurt if the firearm discharges Keep your finger off the trigger until you have an adequate sight picture Maintain situational awareness |
November 13, 2017, 02:15 PM | #24 |
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17 x 9mm is much greater than 7 x .45
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November 13, 2017, 02:46 PM | #25 |
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Is Big Bullet Technology Dead?
Not dead, but if you're a millennial we make sure to hide it from you. |
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