1911 jam

[chris in va]

Here is a pic of the last round jam I've been having trouble with.


image hosting

It's as if the case is trying to reinsert itself backward in the mag somehow. All the others eject fine.

[JasonD67]

Does this happen with all your mags?

[mehavey]

You sure the ejector isn't broken off short?

[chris in va]

Not sure what a normal 1911 ejector looks like, here's a pic.



I have a Wilson Combat mag, Kimber mag and ACT. Problems seem to happen with the first two, haven't used the ACT much.

[mehavey]

That looks like normal ejector protrusion.
It "ought" to be kicking" that last case out.
tis a puzzlement....

[Aguila Blanca]

Is the extractor too loose or too tight?

[JohnKSa]

Normally on the last round, the gun would lock open. If that were happening, then it couldn't try to close on the empty and you wouldn't get the malfunction that you are seeing.

So there are two problems.

1. The gun should be locking open on the last round and it is not.

2. The ejection isn't as vigorous as it should be and so when the gun fails to lock open, the empty is hanging around to get jammed in the action when the slide closes.

I would start with #1 and solve it first because it's possible that whatever is preventing the slide from locking open is also contributing to weak ejection.

[mehavey]

Following up on JohnKSa:

Does the gun reliably lock open when the slide is manually operated on an empty magazine?

If yes...

Are you shooting commercial ammunition ?

If yes...

Does this problem occur with all commercial ammunition ?

If yes...

Is the gun fully lubed on all sliding surfaces ?

If yes ...

Consider replacing recoil spring using a calibration pac from Wolff


.

[Nathan]

Does the slide lock open as shown or does it end up resting on the case?

When you slide a loaded round up the breech face, does the extractor hold it looser or tighter than another known good pistol, ideally in that caliber?

Where I’m going is most jams after firing are the extractor losing control of the case head position. With a case coming up with a stiff spring, this is masked until the last round by the next round holding it up or even pushing it up as it rises in the mag.

[L-2]

Edit.
Disregard my responses below; "1911Tuner" is now in-the-house and answering/solving the issue in his posts, below. His expertise on 1911 issues may be 2nd to none; I'm glad to see his answers in this thread.
***********
I'm liking Posts 7 & 8 answers, and I'll add:
-possible timing of slide's cycling which points to:
-ammo, please no reloads or somebody's favorite load recipe right now. Let's ensure the gun is working with brands of 230 grain FMJ first.
-recoil spring. Even with various brands of 230 gr. fmj, I'll notice spent casing not making it out of the ejection chamber in time, indicating I should change my 16 pound recoil spring, usually at ~3,000 rounds.
-magazine feed lips. Once that casing is pushed back into the mag's feed lips like that (any & all of the mags which this has happened to), the feed lips may now have be to wide. The feed lips can spread just from age & mag quality. I use an upper limit of .390" at the rear before replacing mag bodies. Cracks can even form at the rear of the feed lips downward along the back of the body. This isn't particularly a cause of this FTEject issue, but a result, looking at the OP's photo.

Try to share more info next time, including: make, model, caliber, ammo, history, number of rounds, barrel length (if the photos don't show), or just more photos which could answer some of the detail requests.

Good luck in the diagnosis and cure. It may be simple or a bit more complicated without knowing more about the specific 1911.

[Jim Watson]

Last round only?
= EXTRACTOR not holding empty in line with ejector. Previous rounds were guided back to the ejector by the top round still in the magazine.

[RickB]

Try extracting/ejecting a case with no mag in the gun; does the case drop out the magwell, rather than ejecting?
If so, the extractor is losing its grip on the rim, and with no ejection assist from rounds in the mag (a feature of the original 1911 design that's largely defeated by extended ejectors . . .), the case isn't being properly presented to the ejector.

[chris in va]

I did the empty case test, it ejected out the side like normal.

I do use varying recipes of reloads, but wouldn't I be having ejection problems midway through as well?

This is a Citadel 5", my first 1911 after using a CZ for years. The barrel has a ton of machining chatter marks, wouldn't mind getting a good barrel for it at some point.

[Aguila Blanca]

Have you tried it with standard power, factory ammo? That's the base line. That type of stoppage can be caused by weak ammo not retracting the slide far enough, but you have a point -- that shouldn't be limited to just the last round. But it could be multiple small issues adding up and the last round condition is enough to be the tipping point.

Try some factory ammo. If your reloads are lighter than 230-grain, 830 fps, you might get a recoil spring "try" pack from Brownells and see what a 14-pound or 12-pound sping might do.

[44 AMP]

A couple questions I didn't see answered...

Does this happen with every magazine?

You say its a last round thing, does this happen when the magazine is loaded short? say 3, or only 1 round?

What I'm seeing in the pic is a variation of the classic "stovepipe" jam which is typically the fault of the extractor not holding the case sufficiently to let it pivot out when it strikes the ejector. Its also possible the case be let go before it even strikes the ejector, and while the usual culprit, it is possible the extractor alone is not the entire cause of the fault.

First thing to do is to remember that you should only change ONE thing at a time, when trying to troubleshoot and remedy the problem.

Ammo brand/load is one thing. Magazines are one thing, each part and spring are individually "one thing". Condition of the gun, and even how it is held are "one things".

Change one thing, test. repeat testing with each change as long as the problem persists. Sometimes the answer is just one change, sometimes the cause is a combination of things, and several changes are needed before discovering that.

Simple and easy first changes are the ammo, the shooter, and the magazine. If changing those doesn't change the issue, it gets a bit more complex.

One thing I can tell you, from your picture, is that the ejector in your gun is not what was put in the 1911, and is not what is in the WWII GI 1911a1s, or the commercial Colt Govt Models.

It is one of the "long nose" or "extended" styles used in the Commander model. This does not make it "wrong" for your gun, just not what Colt did.
It may be an issue, it may not. Since your gun is a 1911A1 PATTERN gun, several parts are different from what Colt did.

Often this doesn't matter. Sometimes, it does....

Test, document results, make one change, test again, keep notes of what does what, when. (mark your mags so you can track them individually as well).

don't just go swapping out parts and springs randomly. You might wind up with a gun that runs ok, but you won't know WHY, and that means you won't know what was the fix and what might or might not be the problem if something else goes wrong later.

Good luck, and please keep us informed of your results.

[HiBC]

In the grand sequence of events, the last live round fed, chambered,and fired.

IMO,that would discourage me from focusing on the processes up stream.

Extraction is at least partially successful. The case is no longer in the chamber.

I agree extractor tension may be an issue. For the rounds previous to the last round,the mag spring is pushing up on the next round. That next round feeding up pressure can hold the case in he "up" position till it ejects. With no next round pushing "up" the extractor may not be holding the case on the breech face. It can fall. Then the ejector is not going to do its job.

Thats my most likely scenario. There is another dance move JMB choreographed at this time which MAY have a bearing...but I'm not sure quite how.

And the question about the slide locking back matters. The mag spring and follower must push the slide lock up. If your slide stop is functioning reliably,I doubt there is an issue. If its not, There may be a few things to look at. Your thumb,for one. Plunger detent pressure. Mag spring tension. Etc,but its probably a distraction if your slide stop is working.

Might you be running a rubber buffer washer? Those CAN throw a red herring in the slide travel/ejection function.

[JohnKSa]

I do use varying recipes of reloads, but wouldn't I be having ejection problems midway through as well?

The top round in the magazine often plays a part in ejection.

So no, it's not a given that you would have ejection problems midway through but could have on the last round where there's no round left in the mag to push up on the extracted case.

Anyway, I wouldn't focus on the ejection problem until you get the slide locking open reliably on the last round. You may find that once you get that fixed, the last round ejection problem goes away too.

[tangolima]

90% of ejection problems are caused by extractor issues. A pistol should eject the last round, fired or unfired, with or without the magazine.

That should help narrow it down.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[JohnKSa]

A pistol should eject the last round, fired or unfired, with or without the magazine.

It's not so much the magazine that makes the difference as it is the top round in the magazine.

When the case is extracted, it is pulled backwards and when the stripper rail clears the top round in the mag, that round pops up. When the round pops up, it pushes upwards on the extracted case and plays a part in ejection.

Should the gun extract even without that top round in the mag? Yeah, I think it should, but it should also lock back on the last round and it's not doing that either.

[hub1home]

I agree with those who said try some factory ammo. Be sure your gun is clean before you try it

[chris in va]

Looks like it could be one of my loads. I tried some middle power (ie factory recipe) 225's and 200's and they all ejected the last case fine, although over the top of my head.

The one that kept crunching cases was my 160gr bullets. I love shooting these but apparently I'll need to use a different recoil spring as the timing must be way off, probably not enough mass to cycle properly.

Thanks for all the suggestions!

[1911Tuner]

Here's what's happening:

The case is falling off the breechface because the extractor isn't holding it.

Because there isn't a round under it to support it and help kick it out of the port, it gets dragged partway back into the magazine, depressing the follower and preventing the slide from locking back.

The slide keeps moving and rips the case rim from the extractor claw.

The slide runs forward and tries to feed the trapped empty case...now sitting in the magazine at an odd angle...and crushes it between the breechface and the barrel hood.

There are two possibilities:

Either the extractor is rotating counter-clockwise far enough to drop the case...usually caused by the extractor channel being located too far to the right or the lower edge of the extractor tensioning wall has been heavily beveled, and when the barrel drops, pulling the case down with it, the case rim loses contact with the part of the wall that keeps tension on it...and falls off the breechface.

If it's the first one, the only cure is a new slide with a correctly located extractor channel.

If it's the 2nd one, a new extractor...prepped by someone who understands that there's a limit to how much bevel can be used on the tensioning wall.

[mehavey]

Looks like it could be one of my loads. I tried some middle power (ie factory
recipe) 225's and 200's and they all ejected the last case fine, although over
the top of my head.

The one that kept crunching cases was my 160gr bullets. ...but apparently
I'll need to use a different recoil spring

We have met the enemy......


Wolff to the rescue for apparent short-stroking with (very) light loading.

[JohnKSa]

... it gets dragged partway back into the magazine, depressing the follower and preventing the slide from locking back.

How weak are the springs in a 1911 mag? I've never seen a mag with springs so weak that a loaded cartridge, let alone an empty, could depress the follower at all.

[HiBC]

Its a recoil operated pistol designed around a 230/240 grain load. Its no surprise lightly loaded 160 gr bullets would present a different recoil impulse.

Note if the slide is not traveling back far enough to reliably be caught by the slide stop,its not traveling far enough back for the ejector to do its job.

I had a Commander size pistol that was intermittent with holding the slide open on the last round. I put in a 2 lb lighter recoil spring. Problem solved.

Simple,cheap fix for problems caused by light loads. Easily reversible.

You still might need extractor tuning.

It might be a good time to mention : DO NOT drop single round in the chamber of a 1911 pattern pistol and drop the slide on it. Thats one was to screw up your extractor. The extractor is not designed to flex to snap over the rim. Its designed for the cartridge to be fed up the breech face from the magazine,sliding under the extractor. Thats important.

If you have an available good pistolsmith, just let the smith tune your extractor.

While there is a commonly used method of bending the extractor using the hole in the slide, IMO,its much better to just buy (or make) the extractor adjusting tool.

https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-t...%7cMake_3=1911