Long range distance for self defense

TraumaRN · August 6, 2019, 07:48 PM

Recent events has got me thinking I should practice more and practice at longer ranges. What is the consensus on a a good distance to master?

DaveBj · August 6, 2019, 08:00 PM

Besides shooting targets at 5, 7, 10, and 15 meters, I also bang away at a human silhouette at 25 meters. I'm bad enough that I would never think of taking a real-world shot at that distance, but I'm working on improving.

D

Charlie98 · August 6, 2019, 08:23 PM

The issue with that is... adrenaline. If you really think you can shoot a pistol during an active shooter event at any extended range... you are kidding yourself, and not something I would want to try with the shooter 50' away and wading through a crowd of people, or people running willy-nilly everywhere. That is not to say you shouldn't practice basic shooting skills at longer distances.

DaveBj · August 6, 2019, 08:38 PM

I completely agree, Charlie. The adrenaline factor in real life completely changes everything, which is why I said that I would not consider it at this time. I'm still working on poking holes in paper at this time.

D

OneFreeTexan · August 6, 2019, 08:54 PM

Beyond 7 yards, in most jurisdictions, it isn’t considered ‘self-defense’.

DaveBj · August 6, 2019, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneFreeTexan

Beyond 7 yards, in most jurisdictions, it isn’t considered ‘self-defense’.

Maybe not, but that consideration might be waived following the successful takedown of a mass shooter. Note the keyword "successful".

D

**44 AMP** · August 6, 2019, 09:09 PM

Quote:

20 June 1994 Fairchild Air Force Base

Senior Airman Andrew P. Brown, age 25, with the 92nd Air Force Security Police Squadron, was patrolling the base’s housing areas on a bicycle when he received an emergency call on his two-way radio. He pedaled a quarter-mile to the scene and, while still some 70 yards away, spotted Mellberg shooting at scores of panic-stricken people in the parking lot.
Brown ditched his bicycle and ordered the gunman to drop his weapon. When Mellberg turned and shot at him, Brown dropped into a combat crouch and returned fire with his 9mm Beretta M9 semiautomatic pistol. He fired four rounds at Mellberg; two missed, one hit him in the shoulder and one struck him between the eyes, instantly ending his homicidal rampage. The drum magazine in Mellberg’s MAK-90 still held 19 rounds of ammunition.

70+ yards with an M9 service pistol AFTER pedaling a bike a quarter mile (and I don't think he was loafing along..) I think there might have been some adrenaline involved there, too...

Clearly it is NOT impossible.

likely? no. Advisable for a civilian? I wouldn't think so, but always remember this, if you are in range of the bad guy, he's in range of you. Whether or not you succeed, is up to you.

Sharkbite · August 6, 2019, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Beyond 7 yards, in most jurisdictions, it isn’t considered ‘self-defense’.

Could you cite a statute or case law to back up that statement? This oft repeated (on the interweb) legal opinion is seriously flawed.

jmr40 · August 7, 2019, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Beyond 7 yards, in most jurisdictions, it isn’t considered ‘self-defense’.

I'm going with urban legend. Certainly not in most jurisdictions, possibly some rare cases. Never heard of any real world issues with this. And a one sentence defense would convince any jury that it is BS. "If I'm able to hit someone, they are close enough to hit me. If it is a good shoot, it is a good shoot and range has no factor in it. I practice out to 50 yards. I'm not great at that range, a head shot would be more luck than skill. But I can keep over 90% of my shots somewhere on a human silhouette target. About 75% in the kill zone.

Clearly in a situation like El Paso if I'm close enough to see what is happening I'd be returning fire. Even at 50+ yards if I can do it without danger of hitting other people. Most of these people are cowards at heart. In coming rounds, even if they don't hit, often stops the aggression and forces them to take cover effectively ending the incident.

The real danger is being mistaken for the shooter by LE when they arrive on the scene.

UncleEd · August 7, 2019, 08:07 AM

I'd love to know at what distances and what
weapons were used by police to put down
miscreants in all the recent shootings.

Doubt very much the distances were very
great whether the police used their handguns
or possibly a long gun.

Even for police, taking shots at long distances
(25 to 50 yards) could well be judged a no-no.

And as we know from shooting reports, police
are as likely to miss and then face liability
for injuries caused to the innocent.

UncleEd · August 7, 2019, 08:47 AM

jmr40,

The "kill zone" is roughly from nipple to nipple,
then a triangle into about the middle of the face.
Is that where 75% of your shots land?

libiglou · August 7, 2019, 09:03 AM

Great topic. Being an armchair warrior myself I think its worthwhile to practice long range shooting with your EDC. Here is my take on this:

If your at a distance from the treat and not in danger yourself(under some form of cover) then you should have a bit more time to take your shot and any follow up shots.

If I had a DA/SA semi or revolver the hammer needs to be cocked to give me the greatest possible accuracy. Even though I shoot double action pretty decent I know I can shoot SA better.

Moving towards the treat is risky not only because you lost cover and risk being spotted by the shooter but know you also have to worry about any arriving police mistaking you for the shooter.In addition, your at a clear disadvantage if the shooter has a rifle and you a pistol.

I practice 25-50 yard shooting often. For me its fun and challenging. But since I can't legally carry in my state(ny) it dosent matter.

Anyway that's my take on it.

gwpercle · August 7, 2019, 09:29 AM

Becoming proficient at 25 and 50 yards makes up close shots extremely easy and is a big confidence booster .
Join a NRA Precision Handgun ( what we called NRA Bullseye) Leauge , shooting one handed , with no rest at 25 and 50 yards , will make you a crack shot in short order .

I shot NRA Precision Pistol (then Bullseye) with 22 LR , 38 Special and 45 acp for several decades , this was at an indoor range , became a good shot and had a great time doing it .
Gary

Don Fischer · August 7, 2019, 10:10 AM

I can shoot my DA handgun's fairly well at longer distances but never measured then, I plink a bit! I'm good to go at about 10 yds with my semi auto carry guns. Almost have to try to miss minute of chest at 10 yds! At that range I suspect not only don't you need to aim, likely you won't have time either! It was mentioned the cops coming on the scene may shoot you is a real possibility! Bear in mind at all time's, you are likely not that well trained in situation's like that. I'm not sure ex military is either. ex military are probably trained to kill the enemy with the have the bad guy in sight? Not much regard for identifying and avoiding innocent's standing around. I suspect that an off duty police officer will probably not try to take out the prep right away but rather control the situation till help arrive's. Off duty police officer that get's himself shot won't do the innocent a whole lot of good, control the situation! I suspect if he was to identify the shooter and get the shooter's attention, more innocent's would have a chance to get out. Mostly we civilians are not trained in these situation's, myself included. In a military situation the good guy's could be running toward you, how you gonna know if they are good or bad. You rush the bad guy to soon and you could set off a bunch a random firing, put's the people in danger. I do suspect unless something extraordinary happens, the off duty cop won't look to end it but to rather control the situation. If the bad guy has a hostage, I'm pretty sure he's not gonna let that hostage go to deal with you. No probably gonna hide behind the hostage! You gonna shoot through the hostage to stop the bad guy? Life and death situation's can be bad to be in and with a shooter shooting people it is a life and death situation.

This has been interesting discussion. Pretty sure there are some Rambo types on here that would get some people shot that otherwise would not be shot.

zincwarrior · August 7, 2019, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gwpercle

Becoming proficient at 25 and 50 yards makes up close shots extremely easy and is a big confidence booster .
Join a NRA Precision Handgun ( what we called NRA Bullseye) Leauge , shooting one handed , with no rest at 25 and 50 yards , will make you a crack shot in short order .

I shot NRA Precision Pistol (then Bullseye) with 22 LR , 38 Special and 45 acp for several decades , this was at an indoor range , became a good shot and had a great time doing it .
Gary

Well...
In addition to Charlie_98's note, I will add that you have t have the pistol capable of making the shot. A J frame, 3in barrel .380 or 9mm is not going to generally hit at 25 yards in the best of times. You have to be realistic there as well. Most CHLers are not set up to make 25 yard shots, myself included.

DaveBj · August 7, 2019, 12:05 PM

Just got back from the range. I tried an experiment, bracing the pistol on the shooting table. At 25 meters I got three head shots, a throat shot, and a flyer. Then, aiming at center mass, I got three good ones, one in the lower left abdomen, and a flyer. I'm not nearly that good free-hand. I have to work on that. My groups at 5, 7, and 10 meters were not bad at all today; at 15 meters they were starting to spread out. Practice, practice, practice.

D

Wheel-Gunner · August 7, 2019, 01:08 PM

Interesting thread, though it may belong in the general handgun forum rather than the revolver forum. That being said, I am glad it is here since this is where I hang out more often.

I have no idea what I would do in such a situation, but a long distance shot for me is most likely not in the cards. I feel like I can shoot as good or better than most, but there are just too many things that can go wrong at long distances. The perp would have to be clear of a crowd for me to even think about it, but in that situation I am most likely going to try and get my loved ones and I clear of a crowd as well. Close range, or in my path to safety, no question.

On another note; if I am going out to more populated areas, I find myself grabbing a semi more than my trusty revolvers, especially as of late given recent events. Something about the increased capacity is drawing me to my semi's. Routine events for me like going to work, running errands, etc, a revolver is almost always with me. But in a more populated area....the semi's are seeing more daylight. Not sure if the increased capacity would help anyway, but that is the recent trend for me personally.

Let us all hope we never find ourselves in such a situation.

pblanc · August 7, 2019, 01:48 PM

I practice shooting handguns out to 25 yards. I think taking a shot at someone in self-defense with a handgun at any greater distance would be extremely unlikely, at least for me.

Any shots taken by a civilian with a handgun are likely to be at considerably shorter ranges than that, but I do agree that if you can master sight alignment and trigger control well enough to be passably accurate at 25 yards, you will become more accurate at shorter ranges.

Siggy-06 · August 7, 2019, 01:53 PM

I usually shoot 25 yards max, and thats with my full size pistols like my Beretta 92. The longer sight radius certianly helps. I can usually keep 13-15 shots in a 8-10 inch target shooting at a moderate speed.

Jim567 · August 7, 2019, 02:35 PM

I was out at a friends range the other day getting bored shooting three-quarter steel silhouette targets offhand at 250 yards with my Ruger bolt ranch rifle in 7.62 x 39, scoped.
No challenge.
I then went to 100 yards with my Sig 9mm M11A1 pistol on an 8” round plate.
I got maybe 5 hits out of 50.
Opened my eyes lol!

UncleEd · August 7, 2019, 03:04 PM

At an indoor range today, a number of younguns had
AR type weaponry and managed to hit paper at
10 yards in patterns about two feet across.

Meanwhile, at the end of the range where I was,
I watched a gent with a .22 Smith Model 41
pistol. It only had open iron sights.

At 20 yards, one handed, he consistently got patterns
of 1.5 inches with 20 shots a target. OK, he didn't
shoot fast like the younguns.

Meanwhile, at the other end of the range, banga-da-
banga-da-banga-da-bang on and on.

I draw no lesson here, Just reporting the facts.

UncleEd · August 7, 2019, 03:11 PM

Jim567,

Knew an Illinois State pistol champion. He said
he used to be a dedicated rifle shooter until he was
invited to shoot with some pistol guys.

He was ready to show them a thing or two since
their patterns were in his mind pitiful.

He learned a thing or two about rifle vs. pistol
skills that day and decided to dedicate himself to
pistols after that.

As he described it, at local rifle matches a good
to excellent shooter might be up against a third
of the other competitors. But in pistol on the local
level, it is more like competing against maybe five
per cent of the others.

This gives one an idea why the military with its
sometimes limited time to train people dismiss
the pistol as a waste of time.

HiBC · August 7, 2019, 03:26 PM

I'd absolutely agree,most self defense situations are up close ..like 7 yds or less. I'd also agree that as range extends,its harder to claim self defense.

However….if ,as happened at Las Vegas, someone with a rifle is shooting from a window,for example, there are folks who practice smacking a rock on the far hill with a wheel gun at ridiculous ranges...to several hundred yards.

There are handgun hunters and folks who knock over steel rams.

I guarantee I can make that window a very dangerous place to shoot out of as far away as I can tell someone is shooting out of it.

I'm not bragging my shooting ability,but I'm not afraid to hold up all of the front sight and part of the slide of a 1911 at 300 yds if someone is killing people with a long gun. Practice it some,you might be surprised just how dangerous you can make a small piece of real estate

**Unclenick** · August 7, 2019, 03:30 PM

The 7-yard number is just the old average distance given for gunfights with handguns. It's usually credited to the FBI, but this article suggests it isn't that simple. So I am not sure of its origin. The actual distance for self-defense is, of course, whatever distance a credible threat to your life or someone else's is coming from. That article cites the example of a LEO ambushed from 36 yards with a rifle.

As mentioned, 50 yards is the National Match slow fire target distance for Precision Pistol, nee Conventional Pistol, and that's for shooting offhand (standing and using one hand). It's got a 3.36" 10 ring, which is the nearest hundredth of an moa to being a seven moa scratch ten score for a bullet whose diameter is the average of .22, .32, and .38. It's not easy to clean those targets offhand, but it's far from rare. Using a stabilized position like Gunsite's prone pistol, I don't actually find it especially hard to stay on a paper plate with .45 hardball at 100 yards. You just have to remember to aim a foot high. You do need a mechanically accurized pistol, though. A good many production guns I've shot wouldn't stay on the plate at 100 from a Ransom Rest.

I have set my copy of Bill Jordan's book, No Second Place Winner, down somewhere, but IIRC, he describes a BP officer engaging a rifleman on the other side of the Rio Grande with his .357 Mag service revolver and walking the shots up to the fellow. I don't recall if he hit his attacker or just drove him off. I just recall Jordan commenting that they found all the officer's empties carefully conserved in his pocket, a habit created at the range.

And habit seems to be key in many bad situations. Some people get the adrenalized jitters and a heart rate that destroys fine motor coordination. Others default to almost robotically following their training. The latter are the kind who can place hits most reliably under stress. And the more one trains, the more likely one is to join that club.

Jeff Cooper taught us to get all the distance we could between ourselves and our attacker, even if it's just the far side of a room instead of the near side, so our better-trained marksmanship would provide an edge. And I have to say that if I were armed with a 1911 in a crowd and someone started firing from 100 yards away, I'd feel less likely to be singled out or hit before I could place a shot on him than I would feel at closer range. So I'd consider that prospect less rather than more nerve-wracking than a closer encounter.

PolarFBear · August 7, 2019, 03:37 PM

Not associated with recent "events" but I did a session of "lead therapy" this afternoon. Wow, if a bad guy is real slow AND real close, he may be in jeopardy. At 7 yards, doing a double tap, I managed to keep .357's, from a 4 inch barrel, in the chest area. At 15 yards I could manage somewhere on the torso -- with most shots. Did best with my Sigarms 1911 22. Now that thing is a joy to shoot. I do believe I could ruin a bad guys day with it. At least enough to bring his/her attention to me: oops!

August 6, 2019, 07:48 PM	#1
TraumaRN Member Join Date: June 27, 2014 Posts: 46	Long range distance for self defense Recent events has got me thinking I should practice more and practice at longer ranges. What is the consensus on a a good distance to master?

August 6, 2019, 08:23 PM	#3
Charlie98 Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2006 Location: Great state of Texas Posts: 1,077	The issue with that is... adrenaline. If you really think you can shoot a pistol during an active shooter event at any extended range... you are kidding yourself, and not something I would want to try with the shooter 50' away and wading through a crowd of people, or people running willy-nilly everywhere. That is not to say you shouldn't practice basic shooting skills at longer distances. __________________ _______________ "I have this pistol pointed at your heart!" "That is my least vulnerable spot."

August 7, 2019, 01:08 PM	#17
Wheel-Gunner Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2006 Posts: 277	Interesting thread, though it may belong in the general handgun forum rather than the revolver forum. That being said, I am glad it is here since this is where I hang out more often. I have no idea what I would do in such a situation, but a long distance shot for me is most likely not in the cards. I feel like I can shoot as good or better than most, but there are just too many things that can go wrong at long distances. The perp would have to be clear of a crowd for me to even think about it, but in that situation I am most likely going to try and get my loved ones and I clear of a crowd as well. Close range, or in my path to safety, no question. On another note; if I am going out to more populated areas, I find myself grabbing a semi more than my trusty revolvers, especially as of late given recent events. Something about the increased capacity is drawing me to my semi's. Routine events for me like going to work, running errands, etc, a revolver is almost always with me. But in a more populated area....the semi's are seeing more daylight. Not sure if the increased capacity would help anyway, but that is the recent trend for me personally. Let us all hope we never find ourselves in such a situation. __________________ "History does not entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. We must acquire proficiency in defense and display stamina in purpose." Dwight Eisenhower

August 7, 2019, 01:48 PM	#18
pblanc Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Indiana Posts: 697	I practice shooting handguns out to 25 yards. I think taking a shot at someone in self-defense with a handgun at any greater distance would be extremely unlikely, at least for me. Any shots taken by a civilian with a handgun are likely to be at considerably shorter ranges than that, but I do agree that if you can master sight alignment and trigger control well enough to be passably accurate at 25 yards, you will become more accurate at shorter ranges. Last edited by pblanc; August 7, 2019 at 02:05 PM.

August 7, 2019, 01:53 PM	#19
Siggy-06 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2014 Location: Florida Posts: 1,148	I usually shoot 25 yards max, and thats with my full size pistols like my Beretta 92. The longer sight radius certianly helps. I can usually keep 13-15 shots in a 8-10 inch target shooting at a moderate speed. __________________ Flicks just like a lighter, just a different kind of fire.

August 6, 2019, 08:00 PM	#2
DaveBj Member Join Date: June 15, 2019 Posts: 61	Besides shooting targets at 5, 7, 10, and 15 meters, I also bang away at a human silhouette at 25 meters. I'm bad enough that I would never think of taking a real-world shot at that distance, but I'm working on improving. D

August 6, 2019, 08:38 PM	#4
DaveBj Member Join Date: June 15, 2019 Posts: 61	I completely agree, Charlie. The adrenaline factor in real life completely changes everything, which is why I said that I would not consider it at this time. I'm still working on poking holes in paper at this time. D

August 6, 2019, 08:54 PM	#5
OneFreeTexan Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2002 Location: West, Texas Posts: 280	Beyond 7 yards, in most jurisdictions, it isn’t considered ‘self-defense’.

August 7, 2019, 08:07 AM	#10
UncleEd Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2013 Location: N. Georgia Posts: 1,150	I'd love to know at what distances and what weapons were used by police to put down miscreants in all the recent shootings. Doubt very much the distances were very great whether the police used their handguns or possibly a long gun. Even for police, taking shots at long distances (25 to 50 yards) could well be judged a no-no. And as we know from shooting reports, police are as likely to miss and then face liability for injuries caused to the innocent.

August 7, 2019, 08:47 AM	#11
UncleEd Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2013 Location: N. Georgia Posts: 1,150	jmr40, The "kill zone" is roughly from nipple to nipple, then a triangle into about the middle of the face. Is that where 75% of your shots land?

August 7, 2019, 09:03 AM	#12
libiglou Senior Member Join Date: June 28, 2017 Posts: 184	Great topic. Being an armchair warrior myself I think its worthwhile to practice long range shooting with your EDC. Here is my take on this: If your at a distance from the treat and not in danger yourself(under some form of cover) then you should have a bit more time to take your shot and any follow up shots. If I had a DA/SA semi or revolver the hammer needs to be cocked to give me the greatest possible accuracy. Even though I shoot double action pretty decent I know I can shoot SA better. Moving towards the treat is risky not only because you lost cover and risk being spotted by the shooter but know you also have to worry about any arriving police mistaking you for the shooter.In addition, your at a clear disadvantage if the shooter has a rifle and you a pistol. I practice 25-50 yard shooting often. For me its fun and challenging. But since I can't legally carry in my state(ny) it dosent matter. Anyway that's my take on it.

August 7, 2019, 09:29 AM	#13
gwpercle Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2012 Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana Posts: 1,752	Becoming proficient at 25 and 50 yards makes up close shots extremely easy and is a big confidence booster . Join a NRA Precision Handgun ( what we called NRA Bullseye) Leauge , shooting one handed , with no rest at 25 and 50 yards , will make you a crack shot in short order . I shot NRA Precision Pistol (then Bullseye) with 22 LR , 38 Special and 45 acp for several decades , this was at an indoor range , became a good shot and had a great time doing it . Gary

August 7, 2019, 10:10 AM	#14
Don Fischer Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2017 Posts: 1,868	I can shoot my DA handgun's fairly well at longer distances but never measured then, I plink a bit! I'm good to go at about 10 yds with my semi auto carry guns. Almost have to try to miss minute of chest at 10 yds! At that range I suspect not only don't you need to aim, likely you won't have time either! It was mentioned the cops coming on the scene may shoot you is a real possibility! Bear in mind at all time's, you are likely not that well trained in situation's like that. I'm not sure ex military is either. ex military are probably trained to kill the enemy with the have the bad guy in sight? Not much regard for identifying and avoiding innocent's standing around. I suspect that an off duty police officer will probably not try to take out the prep right away but rather control the situation till help arrive's. Off duty police officer that get's himself shot won't do the innocent a whole lot of good, control the situation! I suspect if he was to identify the shooter and get the shooter's attention, more innocent's would have a chance to get out. Mostly we civilians are not trained in these situation's, myself included. In a military situation the good guy's could be running toward you, how you gonna know if they are good or bad. You rush the bad guy to soon and you could set off a bunch a random firing, put's the people in danger. I do suspect unless something extraordinary happens, the off duty cop won't look to end it but to rather control the situation. If the bad guy has a hostage, I'm pretty sure he's not gonna let that hostage go to deal with you. No probably gonna hide behind the hostage! You gonna shoot through the hostage to stop the bad guy? Life and death situation's can be bad to be in and with a shooter shooting people it is a life and death situation. This has been interesting discussion. Pretty sure there are some Rambo types on here that would get some people shot that otherwise would not be shot.

August 7, 2019, 12:05 PM	#16
DaveBj Member Join Date: June 15, 2019 Posts: 61	Just got back from the range. I tried an experiment, bracing the pistol on the shooting table. At 25 meters I got three head shots, a throat shot, and a flyer. Then, aiming at center mass, I got three good ones, one in the lower left abdomen, and a flyer. I'm not nearly that good free-hand. I have to work on that. My groups at 5, 7, and 10 meters were not bad at all today; at 15 meters they were starting to spread out. Practice, practice, practice. D

August 7, 2019, 02:35 PM	#20
Jim567 Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2014 Location: NE FL Posts: 656	I was out at a friends range the other day getting bored shooting three-quarter steel silhouette targets offhand at 250 yards with my Ruger bolt ranch rifle in 7.62 x 39, scoped. No challenge. I then went to 100 yards with my Sig 9mm M11A1 pistol on an 8” round plate. I got maybe 5 hits out of 50. Opened my eyes lol!

August 7, 2019, 03:04 PM	#21
UncleEd Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2013 Location: N. Georgia Posts: 1,150	At an indoor range today, a number of younguns had AR type weaponry and managed to hit paper at 10 yards in patterns about two feet across. Meanwhile, at the end of the range where I was, I watched a gent with a .22 Smith Model 41 pistol. It only had open iron sights. At 20 yards, one handed, he consistently got patterns of 1.5 inches with 20 shots a target. OK, he didn't shoot fast like the younguns. Meanwhile, at the other end of the range, banga-da- banga-da-banga-da-bang on and on. I draw no lesson here, Just reporting the facts.

August 7, 2019, 03:11 PM	#22
UncleEd Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2013 Location: N. Georgia Posts: 1,150	Jim567, Knew an Illinois State pistol champion. He said he used to be a dedicated rifle shooter until he was invited to shoot with some pistol guys. He was ready to show them a thing or two since their patterns were in his mind pitiful. He learned a thing or two about rifle vs. pistol skills that day and decided to dedicate himself to pistols after that. As he described it, at local rifle matches a good to excellent shooter might be up against a third of the other competitors. But in pistol on the local level, it is more like competing against maybe five per cent of the others. This gives one an idea why the military with its sometimes limited time to train people dismiss the pistol as a waste of time.

August 7, 2019, 03:26 PM	#23
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,288	I'd absolutely agree,most self defense situations are up close ..like 7 yds or less. I'd also agree that as range extends,its harder to claim self defense. However….if ,as happened at Las Vegas, someone with a rifle is shooting from a window,for example, there are folks who practice smacking a rock on the far hill with a wheel gun at ridiculous ranges...to several hundred yards. There are handgun hunters and folks who knock over steel rams. I guarantee I can make that window a very dangerous place to shoot out of as far away as I can tell someone is shooting out of it. I'm not bragging my shooting ability,but I'm not afraid to hold up all of the front sight and part of the slide of a 1911 at 300 yds if someone is killing people with a long gun. Practice it some,you might be surprised just how dangerous you can make a small piece of real estate

August 7, 2019, 03:30 PM	#24
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	The 7-yard number is just the old average distance given for gunfights with handguns. It's usually credited to the FBI, but this article suggests it isn't that simple. So I am not sure of its origin. The actual distance for self-defense is, of course, whatever distance a credible threat to your life or someone else's is coming from. That article cites the example of a LEO ambushed from 36 yards with a rifle. As mentioned, 50 yards is the National Match slow fire target distance for Precision Pistol, nee Conventional Pistol, and that's for shooting offhand (standing and using one hand). It's got a 3.36" 10 ring, which is the nearest hundredth of an moa to being a seven moa scratch ten score for a bullet whose diameter is the average of .22, .32, and .38. It's not easy to clean those targets offhand, but it's far from rare. Using a stabilized position like Gunsite's prone pistol, I don't actually find it especially hard to stay on a paper plate with .45 hardball at 100 yards. You just have to remember to aim a foot high. You do need a mechanically accurized pistol, though. A good many production guns I've shot wouldn't stay on the plate at 100 from a Ransom Rest. I have set my copy of Bill Jordan's book, No Second Place Winner, down somewhere, but IIRC, he describes a BP officer engaging a rifleman on the other side of the Rio Grande with his .357 Mag service revolver and walking the shots up to the fellow. I don't recall if he hit his attacker or just drove him off. I just recall Jordan commenting that they found all the officer's empties carefully conserved in his pocket, a habit created at the range. And habit seems to be key in many bad situations. Some people get the adrenalized jitters and a heart rate that destroys fine motor coordination. Others default to almost robotically following their training. The latter are the kind who can place hits most reliably under stress. And the more one trains, the more likely one is to join that club. Jeff Cooper taught us to get all the distance we could between ourselves and our attacker, even if it's just the far side of a room instead of the near side, so our better-trained marksmanship would provide an edge. And I have to say that if I were armed with a 1911 in a crowd and someone started firing from 100 yards away, I'd feel less likely to be singled out or hit before I could place a shot on him than I would feel at closer range. So I'd consider that prospect less rather than more nerve-wracking than a closer encounter. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

August 7, 2019, 03:37 PM	#25
PolarFBear Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2015 Location: NE Tennessee, a "Free State" Posts: 478	Not associated with recent "events" but I did a session of "lead therapy" this afternoon. Wow, if a bad guy is real slow AND real close, he may be in jeopardy. At 7 yards, doing a double tap, I managed to keep .357's, from a 4 inch barrel, in the chest area. At 15 yards I could manage somewhere on the torso -- with most shots. Did best with my Sigarms 1911 22. Now that thing is a joy to shoot. I do believe I could ruin a bad guys day with it. At least enough to bring his/her attention to me: oops!