400 whelen

[tdoyka]

i have a sporterized 98 mauser in 8x57 and next year i'm either going to rebore or rebarrel to the 400 whelen. (read https://web.archive.org/web/20101203...pace_myth.htm# to headspace it). i was going to do the 375 whelen but i already have a 9.3x57(.366"). and i can say that 4-something something!

since 150 lbs whitetails will be its main course, i'll only go 1600-1800fps in 350-400gr fn gc. i hunt in close cover, so 60+ yards is a loooong shot, 25-35 yards is more likely.

1944 98 mauser 8x57mm




i've been thinking of taking it to JES(i like that peep sight) but i might rebarrel it to 24"(it has a 22" barrel). i doubt that extra 2" is a make or break situation, but i like the 24" over the 22". the 98 mauser NEEDS a timney trigger and i'll go with richard's stock( Richards Microfit Gunstocks ), it will be a wolverine style and either a blue coral or black walnut stock.

i doubt highly that i'll get the chance to hunt elk or moose, but my sons' might and i'll just happen to have a rifle that they can use....it sounds good, don't it!!!

[SIGSHR]

The Colonel would be proud of you-remember, "only accurate rifles are interesting."

[Scorch]

Good luck on your project. There are a number of reasons why a .375 Whelen makes more sense than a .400 Whelen:
* Good rifle bullets in .40 caliber (.406" or .410") are going to be hard to find. 100 years ago not so much, there were lots of 40-caliber bullets then, but nowadays finding good jacketed bullets in 40 caliber can be challenging.
* Headspacing on the .400 Whelen was always iffy. You wind up with about a .010" shoulder that really only appears after fireforming. Reliability afield is primary, and poor headspacing can cause problems, which is probably one reason why the .400 Whelen never really got going. Sure, you can go with an AI chamber and pick up a little more shoulder, but the .400 Whelen doesn't have a lot of case taper, so you might have a .020" shoulder. You have to ask yourself if it's worth it.
* Loading dies are going to be custom dies, cost about $250-$300 a set.

Not that any of that should deter you if you're really determined to get a .400 Whelen. Like anything else, if you really want it, you will make it work. I built a project rifle a few years back and rejected the 400 Whelen because of the issues listed above. After that I was leaning towards a 404 Jeffries but ran into the bullets issue again, and eventually just built a 98 in 444 Marlin. Lots of good bullets, factory ammo, plenty of energy, almost 375 H&H energy. Haven't shot anything with it yet, but I'm looking at a hunt this year.

[LRDGCO]

If the issue of rimlock in the magazine can be resolved, 444 Marlin makes a great deal more sense.

[ernie8]

I also built a few 98 Mausers in .44 cal . I just went with the 30/06 case necked up to 44 cal [ .430 bullets ] . A rimless 444 with a little more power and it feeds better in the 98 . Also no bolt face modifications . We have shot many hogs with ours , works great . I also took a deer with mine .

[Bart B.]

I knew two folks that had 375 Whelens built on M98 actions. Both had shoulder setback problems with slightly reduced loads. The .400 version is more susceptible due to its smaller shoulder area. So, use maximum loads and verify fired cases have at least the same headspace after firing as when full length resized.

[FrankenMauser]

The .400 Whelen that people bemoan today should actually be called ".400 RCBS".
Chamber casts of original .400 Whelen chambers (including the second rifle built) show blown-out bodies with very little taper, and a very sharp shoulder. (I'd like to cite exact dimensions, but Fred took his library offline, in favor of selling books.)

Things went wrong some time in the '60s, however, when RCBS 'standardized' the .400 Whelen with dimensions based on necking up otherwise-unmodified .30-06 cases.

.400 Whelen was never noted or accused of having any issues with light strikes, head space, or shoulder deformation until .400 RCBS came into the picture.

If you want to know more about the history and bastardization of .400 Whelen, it's covered in Fred Zeglin's reloading manual, "Hawk Cartridges". He and Bob Fulton spent a decade researching the cartridge, taking chamber casts, taking casts of sizing dies, measuring anything worth measuring, and collecting any and all information available (such as personal correspondence and production notes).


My own opinion:
.400 RCBS is less than ideal. I wouldn't want one.
.400 Whelen (proper), however, has been on the table for quite some time. I've been collecting .400 Whelen basic brass for a while now (almost a decade?), when I find a good price on it. Eventually, I will own one.
Bullets? Yea, selection is limited. You just have to know what you're getting into before you take the leap.

Small shoulders don't scare me, either. I already deal with a wildcat (.475 Tremor) whose shoulder diameter is only 0.030" larger than neck diameter. Runs fine. Does nothing funky. ... In an auto-loader.
There is no room for a sloppy chamber with dimensions like that, though. That rifle's chamber dimensions are so close to sized case dimensions that fired cases show little, if any expansion, except in the case neck.

Know what you're getting into. Make sure your 'smith knows how to properly control chamber dimensions. And make sure you're using the right reamer.
Lastly, DO NOT anneal the shoulder when forming cases.
The rest is ancillary.

All of the above being said... The easiest way to get into a .400 Whelen that won't give you issues is to have the rifle chambered for .411 Hawk.

[GeauxTide]

Bullet choice in .338-06 would be superior. A 250-275 at 2300......

[reynolds357]

The headspace problems of the .40-06 are no myth. They are very real and very hard to deal with. Accurate headspacing requires high pressure fire forming. You can't successfully do it with shotgun powder and grits.

[old roper]

Might give Pac Nor call as they chamber for 400 Whelen.

http://pac-nor.com/wildcat/

[FrankenMauser]

Accurate headspacing requires high pressure fire forming.

...The only proper way to fire-form.


But nearly all of the potential issues go away, including the need for fire-forming, if standard '06 family cartridge brass is not used.
Basic brass (or "cylinder" brass) doesn't need to be necked up. It doesn't need a 'false shoulder'. It doesn't need anything other than being sized to form the cartridge it is meant to be (and then maybe some trimming).

[Dufus]

I have been loading, shooting, and hunting with the 8x57 since 1963. I am very familiar with the cartridge.

I would keep it 8x57 if the rifle was in my hands.

The cartridge, when loaded to its potential, can kill deer, moose, elk, bear, or whatever on this continent.

If it needs a new barrel, then get one.

Of course, the rifle is yours and you do what you want to do with it. These are my thoughts, and this is my opinion.

[taylorce1]

My buddy has a .400 Whelen built on a 1903 rifle, he used Shilen for his barrel. He also used a reamer that Michael Petrov loaned him before he passed. I'd try to find a reamer made to Petrov's print from his research on the .400 Whelen as he researched this cartridge more than anyone else.

If you would like to talk with my buddy about his .400 Whelen build I can put you into contact with him, just PM me. Here is his rifle:

Thought I'd post pictures of my 400 Whelen, sorry the photo quality is poor but you'll get the idea.
1903 Springfield action, 2 position wing safety, Timney trigger, Shilen 23.5" barrel, NECG sights, Warne bases, Gunsmith Kevin Weaver.

[tdoyka]

http://www.finegunmaking.com/page33/page51/page51.html
http://www.finegunmaking.com/page33/page52/page52.html
https://www.qual-cart.com/400%20cal.htm


this is what i want.

[Flicks]

Good luck my friend!

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by tdoyka

this is what i want.

Since that is what you want, I'd go with a new barrel over rebore.

[reynolds357]

Definitely a new barrel. Rebore is over rated.