.22short or .25 acp

[sox]

Which do you prefer? I read somewhere that penetration with 22 short is actually better than .25? What do you think. Also, what kind of velocity are you really getting with the Beretta/Astra Cub sized weapons? Thanks.

[George Hill]

.25ACP is much better than .22 Short. Where did you hear otherwise?
.25ACP is better compaired to .22LR - and that is a debate waiting to happen!

[Badger Arms]

With .32's available that are nearly as small as any 25, why would you want a .25. Only the Baby Browning is superior size wise and that ain't a .22 short. If you can find a niche where you can't go bigger, I'd go with the .25 for reliability sake. It's just as effective as the .22 despite many people that will qoute energy comparrisons, ballisics charts, and anecdotal crap like, "I caught one with my hand when somebody shot me with it." Personal biases are a big part of this. Any of the three calibers are, at best, hole punchers from 2" barrels. They all punch a mean hole. The .25 punches a bigger hole, the 22lr goes deeper most of the time and the 22 short recoils less. Nobody should argue that the 22lr is more reliable in pocket guns.

Bottom lining it here, even .22 blanks have a 'one-shot stop' statistic. People don't want to be shot with ANYTHING. Even with bullets like 45 hardball, the bad guy rarely just curls up and dies from his wound.

[George Hill]

If your looking at a 32 then you could get a .380... Seacamp is making that little .32 of theres in .380 now.

[johnwill]

George,

I've shot a number of larger blowback pistols in .380, and I'm going to hazard a guess that the Seecamp .380 is going to be a brutal little beast. NAA is also making a .380 Guardian, same comment applies.

If I'm going for a small .380, my Colt Mustang Pocketlite is as small and light as I'll go. With the locked breech, it's recoil is very mild, and it fits in a pocket just fine. YMMV

[bad_dad_brad]

Well, the .25 acp is certainly more potent that the .22 short. The .22 long, well it depends on the gun.

I like my little Jetfire in .25 acp, but that little guy is obsolete, fun to shoot, but unless you have a brain pan shot up close, pretty weak.

On the other hand, the .25 acp in the Jetfire is totally reliable and I have never had a problem. Go with hardball, as hollowpoints do not have a enough energy to expand all that much if at all, hardball will penetrate better.

Finally .25 acp ammo is way more expensive than any .22.

[4V50 Gary]

only because it's more likely to work when you need it than the 22 short. What makes the 22 short a difficult cartridge to design a gun which works reliably (presuming we're talking autoloaders) is the shortness of the cartridge along with the existence of the rim. Feeding problems may be encountered and if one chooses a 22 Short, they should test it with a multitude of ammunition to determine which works most reliably in it. With the 25 ACP, you have a short bullet, but one which is rimless. Therein lies the advantage of the 25 ACP as a cartridge. Mind you, the gun designer and the gun builder must still do their job in delivering a good product.

BTW, why not consider the Beretta M21 in 22 LR? That works great and is cheap to shoot.

[C.R.Sam]

Couple years ago, not far from me, a gent with a .45ACP was shot by another gent packin a .25. Gent with the .45 took offense to bein shot and shot back. Both died rather quickly. In this instance the .25 racked up a one shot stop. Still, I wouldn't want to stake my life on either a .22 or a .25.

Sam

[slabsides]

The .22 short and the .25, fired from equivalent hideout guns, are equal: only suitable for animate targets weighing no more than one pound.
.22 shorts from a Beretta 950 which I once got in a complicated trade wouldn't penetrate light sheet metal. A .25 ACP slug fired at a friend of mine was defeated by his bike jacket and jeans belt, and made only a faint mark on his waist.
The guns in which these rounds are fired are inaccurate and undependable. These calibers are suitable only for use in 'threat' guns, and you could carve one of those out of a handy block of soap and save yourself some expense. Rather than rely on a .22 short or .25 auto hideout, I'd carry a knife, cosh, or walking stick.
The .22 short in a bolt action rifle, on the other hand, has real utility as a short-range garden-pest cartridge.

[George Hill]

...The Seecamp .380 is going to be a brutal little beast. NAA is also making a .380 Guardian, same comment applies.

[sox]

The NAA is a solution to nothing. What a POS. Why carry a brick like .380 at 18 oz. in a blowback design. Really! The Colt Mustang Pocketlite is a much better design less recoil, lighter in weight, SA, and with custom thinned grips is a sweet carry piece. Furthermore, the 342PD series at 10.7 oz. makes the NAA pointless-period.

[George Hill]

Colt Mustang Pocketlite is also no longer in production...
And I would put NAA quality over those Colts anyday. They are FAR from POS as you say. CNC milled with new tooling and then hand fitted by experts.
You dont know NAA very well.

[Jody Hudson]

I love the .22 LR in QuickShok and before that Stingers. The QS are FAR more reliable. I've only had two failures to fire with the QS in my TPH out of several thousand. With Stingers, it was more like one in 50 that would fail to go off.

Now, to the .25 vs .22 short. I do like the .22 short Mini-Mag by CCI in HP and it's very accurate!!! The .25 is more reliable but much more expensive to purchase.

My little girl has a little Beretta in .25 and we went out shooting the .25, the .22 LR in TPH and some larger calibers at a bunch of cars and stuff in a junk yard. The newer .25s in the premium rounds are far superior to some vintage .25 that we had with us. The differece was remarkable.

The new .25 by Fiochi and others had far more power and penetration that the vintage .25 ammo. Car window were fully penetrated by the new .25s. I guess it's a combination of firmer bullets and faster. The little .25 penetrated metal and glass about the same as the .22 QS.

The .22 QS however almost exploded and left 2 to 3 inch diameter exit wounds in some large cabbages. Even the most expensive .25 HPs just went through the cabbage without expanding.

I am glad I got her the .25 however as she does not at this point shoot often. She is only 10 but her brothers were far more interested in shooting than she is. She lives in the city now however instead of in the country here with me.

For someone who is not constantly shooting a small pistol I would go with the .25 and try some of the best ammo you can get. Then decide whether you want penetration or expansion. So far, I have not found expansion in her .25 but more tests will be done when the fruit and vegetable season gets more ripe.

I did have expansion with the CCI mini-mag short HP when I used to shoot a little Beretta .22 short a lot. I shot it for fun and carried the little thing for dogs in the woods. It was target accurate. I have found terrible accuracy, comparatively in the newer little Beretta pistols.

I hope to try a Baby Browning .25 tomorrow. It is one of the few pistols I've never shot. Two just came in the gun shop here.

[James K]

Given that choice, I would certainly agree that the .25 is much better than the .22 Short. It is better than the .22 LR if ballistics from the same length barrel are considered. Many folks compare the .22 ballistics from a rifle or a long barrel pistol with the .25 from a 2" barrel pistol.

There is no doubt that something more powerful would be better, and many people disparage the little rounds and the small pistols as totally useless. I note, however, the lack of volunteers willing to be shot with one.

Jim

[Doug S]

I was going through some old magazines recently and found an article on the Beretta Minx and the 22 short. The author (although he liked his Minx) recommended the 25 caliber Jetfire for a number of reasons. The 25 Beretta is much more reliable. He stated that he had jamming problems about every 30 or so rounds with the 22 short (rimmed cartridge) and claimed that the cause of this jamming was the rimmed cartridge not the pistol. In contrast he stated that he has never had the 25 caliber Jetfire jam. Ballistically the 22 short was the equivalent of the 25 only when it was fired from a six inch barrel. I have a stainless Jetfire with 200 rounds through it. I know it's not powerful but it is accurate and so far totally reliable.

[Kentucky Rifle]

..in my stainless Jetfire. It feels pretty hefty for such a small bullet. I choose pocket pistols that have the reputation of shooting every time you pull the trigger. Seecamp, Guardian, Jetfire, P-32--They all go bang every time.

Kentucky Rifle

[Glamdring]

Well if I had to pick between the 22 short and 25 acp I would take the money and buy a Spyderco or Cold Steel knife, or two. Heck an ASP would cost less than any pistol I would carry and it would be much more effective than the 22 or 25 or most folding knifes.

I would rather face a 22 or 25 than a knife at the typical ranges the real world problems occur. It is easier to disarm someone holding a gun than it is with someone holding a knife. Plus you know they won't have a reload if they are using a 22 or 25...so they only have 8 shots or so to work with.

With Kel Tec's P32 I don't understand why anyone would go to a weaker caliber handgun for a CCW. It only weights 10 or so oz's loaded. You can conceal it easily in any clothing except perhaps swimwear.

[Redlg155]

Unless I routinely visited a nudist colony I would not carry either round when there are more effective calibers in the same size weapon. At the very least I would consider a .22 WMR.

If you have to shoot someone who is already pumped up with adrenalin or drugs, you want something to upset the central nervous system as much as possible. I wouldn't feel confident with either of these calibers to do that.

Good Shooting
RED

[Redlg155]

I forgot to mention this,

>>Heck an ASP would cost less than any pistol I would carry and it would be much more effective than the 22 or 25 or most folding knifes.

I don't know about you, but I would not want to challenge someone with a .22 or a .25 who knew how to shoot at 15 to 20 feet. I would dare say that the BG would catch a couple of slugs to the cranium. At the very least this would incapacitate them enough to allow you to escape.

If you let someone close within the striking range of an edged weapon or asp, then you are screwed regardless of the caliber you are using if the BG knows what he is doing. He may die, but you will take a hit or two in the exchange.

Good Shooting
RED

[sox]

I have been in medicine 18 years, have seen many in the back of my ambulance as I have poored in IV fluid, ventilated them and pressed on their chests. Many have come into the trauma room and into the OR. Caliber has always been the least of their worries gang. Shot placement is the number one factor in all of these shootings. I don't subscribe to the Evan Marshall school of thought. Penetration is key, especially with the tiny guns. I have .380s, .32s, but the smaller mouseguns have a place-at least for me. My real world risk is pretty low. I have been assaulted by an unknown perp in the past, know the difference between a fight and combat. My .22 short so far has fired over 700 rounds with 1 misfire due to bad primer. Simply don't have the time to sit down and chronograph, do penetration tests etc. Was just looking for some useful, accurate information.

[Glamdring]

Redlg155: Few people who know how to shoot would choose to start something if armed with a 22 or 25 pocket pistol IMO. And the small pocket pistols are difficult to shoot well at any range because of the small grip and poor to non existant sights.
Tuller drill is done from 21 feet with "knife" armed person having weapon in hand and pistol person starting with pistol holstered. And with holsters that are not truly concealed it is usually a draw at best for the pistol person.
The few people I know that have actually had to shoot a goblin with 9mm or 45 did not get anything close to a OSS with solid hits [the goblins died but not for several minutes and were able to keep attacking in the one instance, & the other jumped thru a window and ran a couple blocks away before collasping].
And when your the good guy you usually have to let the goblin start first so you know lethal force is legal. So the goblin will probably be closer than 21 feet. The real danger zone seems to be at even closer range like only a few feet. And at contact distance I have a lot more faith in a ASP than a 22, 25, or 32.

Sox: I agree with you that as far as killing goes the caliber doesn't matter. I am sure the 22rf kills more people than probably any other two rounds combined. And shot placement is probably 2nd consideration, that the gun goes bang would be my first consideration, followed by penetration for #3.

But ergonomics have a big affect on being able to place shot were you want it. And at least for me none of the true pocket pistols let me do that as well as I like. I have to move up to 5 shot snub revolvers or the mini 9mm's for that.

That is part of the reason I would prefer an ASP followed by a good folding knife. I know the ASP will have an effect adn that I can hit the target somewhere that will matter with it. Smallest pistol I own is the P32, but I don't have a lot of confidence in it. And I don't recommend it as a primary.

YMMV

[bad_dad_brad]

Good Forum! Lot's of honest answers and opinions.

For sure a little Kahr MK9, or the even smaller Kel Tec P32 is superior, but that was not the question. .22 verses the .25 was the question.

Given the same barrel and good ammo, the .25 is the winner.

Hey guy with the knife, give me 10 yards and nine rounds in any caliber, verses your knife and you are dead dead dead. But for sure, I would not want to be a few yards away from you with any pistol. A good quick knife at close range, with someone willing to use it is a scary weapon indeed.

But remember what the top gun fighter pilots preach, avoid a knife fight (dogfight) at all costs. Get in close, and any weapon is effective.

Thanks guys and gals for such an entertaining and un-biased forum. The smaller caliber it seems the more honest things get.

[slabsides]

sox and bad-dad-brad seem to think that mouse gun marksmanship at 20 yards trumps a knife.
Perhaps this would be true in a confrontation conducted under the Code Duello.
In real life, the BG is in your face. The action is chaotic. Adrenalin is giving everyone involved a big shot of chemical armor.
Unless you're a paperback superspy, 'precise bullet placement' and 'penetration' is out the window with .22/25's.
Clothing and 'stuff' will get in the way of the mouse gun bullet, most of the time. Murphy's Law.
Pop-pop-pop won't back off a determined attacker, where the sight of a bladed weapon often will.
Incapacitation from knife wounds is more serious than the pokey holes made by little guns.
I'll still take a knife over a mouse-gun. And what I carry is a .38 or 9mm midsize, which with proper loads is quite effective, should the shooting really start.

[Alex Johnson]

It's always interesting when the posts are asking specific questions concerning such calibers as the .22's and .25's how the .32's and .380's are always cropping in place. When you start going along with the reasoning that if your going to carry a .25 you could just as easily carry a .32. Going further the step up to a .380 isn't that hard and than, well, why not just go with a compact 9mm; but than again, if you are going to carry a gun that size why not carry a real pistol and start looking at the smaller .40's, or even a mini .45. In the end you would find yourself carrying a 12 guage pump. The point is that the small guns carry easier than the big ones and yes there even is a size difference between the small .25's and the 32's, sorry maybe isn't fair, but it's true.

[Glamdring]

Slabsides: I think you said what I was trying to say only you made sense

Alex: I agree with your post to a certain extent. Except most/all of the 380's available are at least as heavy as a Kel Tec P11 or Kahr P9. And I believe the P 32 is lighter than any other little pistol except for some of the very tiny 22's. You can stick a P32 in a nylon wallet and stick it in your pocket and no one can tell your packing. A purpose built pocket holster is more comfortable than using a wallet.

IMHO there are 5 weight classes for CCW pistols:
1) P32 6.6 oz empty and 10 oz loaded
2) S&W Ti 38 specials or 32 mags 12 oz empty & ??oz loaded
3) Kel Tec P11 14oz empty 21 oz loaded; Kahr P9 is 17oz empty IIRC and 21 oz loaded
4) Glock 19/23 21 oz empty & 30 something loaded
5) Then you have the 45acp/10mm in autos & the 44mag in the Mt Gun.