Winchester Brass is just sad these days!

MJFlores · September 18, 2013, 01:24 PM

Uggh. To start off...I'm a HUGE fan of Winchester firearms, ammo, and components...but that's rapidly changing. Winchester arms are now made in Portugal, but that's another matter.

Over the winter I did a lot of reloading of .223, and I was tossing 25 cases per 100 due to horrible flash holes, and way under length case measurements. Monday evening I opened a brand new bag of Winchester 30/06 brass and began my normal visual inspections. Out of 50 I scrapped 5 cases...not bad at all! I dont measure for length until after sizing, so I deburred the flash holes on the remaining 45 and full length sized them. Last night I set up my trimmer and used a scrap Federal case to set my RCBS trimmer to trim to a length or 2.484. I always measure before trimming, then trim, chamfer, debur and measure again. Out of 45 brand new cases I have 8 that I could trim. A few were 3 to 4 thousandths under minimum which I don't like, with the majority being 7 to 10 thousandths below minimum trim length. What the hell?? I take my hunting ammo very seriously, and usually keep my BEST stuff for hunting and use the secondary stuff for target shooting... and am about to bag the whole bag of crap up and send it to Winchester. My experience with the 5 bags of .223 brass over the winter I figured was a fluke, but now with these cases I doubt I'll ever drop another penny for Winchester components. Looks like Norma, Hornandy, and Lapua will be my brass company. Still in dis-belief. Clearly Winchester is selling scrap as bags of new cases!

Mike38 · September 18, 2013, 02:05 PM

I had similar but with Remington brass. Bought 100 pieces of 7mmSTW brass and had to throw away 10 of them. One or two, no problem, but 10% rejects is pretty bad. I don’t think Quality Control or as some places call it Quality Assurance is up to the same standards that it was 10-20 years ago. Companies now-a-days have a mind set of pleasing the share holders, and the customers are secondary. It’s not just the firearm industry, it’s all industries.

BumbleBug · September 18, 2013, 02:14 PM

The last 100 pieces of new Winchester .22-250 brass I bought was so bad I sent them back to Midway & had them replaced them with Remingtons. About 30% of the Win brass had the flashholes so off-center you could roll them on the table & spot them easily.

FWIW...

...dr

Paul B. · September 18, 2013, 02:59 PM

The only problem I've had with Winchester brass is the four bags of .280 Rem. brass I bought were all short one or two pieces of brass. I wrote Winchester with my complaint and they sent me a couple of $5.00 off coupons for any Winchester product. My thought is with all the shortages we're seeing, they're pushing brass and other components out just as fast as they can and quality control has been curtailed to eliminate only the worst of the worst. I got lucky with a deal on 500 rounds of 7x57 and 500 rounds if .358 Win. brass which is only made on a seasonal basis. With all the shortages, I'm guessing there isn't much of those two available right not. I did snag those two sets of brass about a month or so before the madness began. FWIW, every one of those cases was in good shape with no problems.
Paul B.

steveno · September 18, 2013, 03:37 PM

yes the flash holes could be a problem but the brass being .004 to .010 under minimum trim length is hardly a problem. it is probably the same length they use on their loaded ammo

Brian Pfleuger · September 18, 2013, 03:39 PM

Being under trim to length isn't really an issue. "Trim to" is rather arbitrary. A lot of guys shooting in competition trim their brass shorter than spec anyway, just so they don't have to trim again.

Particularly in regards to hunting ammo, case length makes almost no difference unless you're crimping. Even then, 0,004 isn't going to hurt anything.

On the other hand, I can not fathom being OK with throwing away 10% of my brand new cases because they were so far out of spec.

Just one more reason why I always say that Norma and Lapua aren't as expensive as people think they are.

I started my reloading with Norma brass. I've since bought one bag of Winchester, only because Norma doesn't make that cartridge... never again.

jwrowland77 · September 18, 2013, 05:33 PM

The only way I would be critical with brass, is if its A) for my Match ammo, or B) if the case has a crack in it. Some calibers are just plain hard to find new Win brass for. For hunting rounds, I would never be that critical. That's why I use Lapua brass for my Match ammo and Win for my hunting rounds.

Kimber84 · September 18, 2013, 07:14 PM

I'm done with Win brass as well... I had to toss a bunch of .243 brass due to cracked necks. This was all brand new brass as well.

myfriendis410 · September 18, 2013, 08:30 PM

I've been bitching about WW brass for a couple of years. One of my friends bought some .300 short mag brass and sent it ALL back due to irregular and off-center flash holes. Never even GOT to overall length.

I disagree on the trim length not being overly critical. I want as even a neck tension as possible on my hunting stuff and I also want it to go where I aim it every time. That means doing everything in my power to make good reloads. Federal, Nosler (Federal), Norma and Lapua.

MJFlores · September 18, 2013, 08:56 PM

Yep, I pretty let down by Winchester right now...and will never buy Winchester brass again. I'm also done with Winchester primers. I realize I do it backwards from some people, but I consider hunting first and target shooting second. I reload so I can have the best hunting ammo I can obtain. I work way to hard to get a game animal in my scope and not have the best I can put together at my finger tip. I'm not a match shooter, my hunts are my big matches and I target shoot to prepare for my hunts. I just cant be dealing with crap components. On a better note, I made a special trip after work and bought a box of Norma .30/06 brass. Now that's some nice stuff and as far as I'm concerned well worth the money.

FrankenMauser · September 19, 2013, 01:25 AM

I haven't bought Winchester brass, voluntarily, since 2003 or so.
It's been crap for a long time.

As Brian said... Premium stuff like Lapua and Norma doesn't look nearly as expensive, when you consider how many culls and how much work it saves you.

dahermit · September 19, 2013, 08:17 AM

Quote:

I haven't bought Winchester brass, voluntarily, since 2003 or so.
It's been crap for a long time.

There was an article in one of the gun rags in the sixties about how Winchester's .44 Special brass rims (remember the .44 Spl. head spaces on the rim), were not consistent, mostly too thick. I bought some .44 Special Winchester brass the seventies and the rims were not consistent. I bought some again in the late Eighties and the rims were still not consistant...hope springs eternal and sometimes it was all that was available.

I have had the rims so large that they would not let the cylinders turn freely on more than one revolver. I have given-up waiting for Winchester to improve the quality of that product. Never found any problem with Remington .44 Special brass in all those years. I agree, although I dislike giving blanket statements, A.K.A, generalizations, it has been "crap" for a long time.

Reloader2 · September 20, 2013, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by myfriendis410

I've been bitching about WW brass for a couple of years. One of my friends bought some .300 short mag brass and sent it ALL back due to irregular and off-center flash holes. Never even GOT to overall length.

I disagree on the trim length not being overly critical. I want as even a neck tension as possible on my hunting stuff and I also want it to go where I aim it every time. That means doing everything in my power to make good reloads. Federal, Nosler (Federal), Norma and Lapua.

The only way it's going to go where you aim it every time is if you are sited in for a certain distance and everything you shot was at that distance. Too many variables in the field and a couple of thousandths of trim lengths doesn't even make the top ten.

Brian Pfleuger · September 20, 2013, 09:12 AM

Considering that the .30-06 neck is about 0.850" long, a trim length difference of even 0.020 is a variance of about 2% and the variance described by the OP is 1% or less. I'd be surprised if it was a Top 20 accuracy factor.

BumbleBug · September 20, 2013, 10:33 AM

When I spring for brand new brass (I consider it expensive), I mistakenly seem to expect something just a little bit better. In my case, one bad experience has definitely made me shy away from buying brand new Win brass. Typically, handloaders are DIY'ers that want to have more. That “more” could be lower cost, or higher quality, or a better sense of accomplishment or they just want more confidence in every shot they make – on target or game. I’m not a competitor, but I load my hunting ammunition as if for competition. Yes, I know 2 MOA is good enough for hunting but handloading plays to my confidence & satisfies my meticulous & perhaps slight OCD.

I’ve always considered Winchester factory ammo excellent. While I haven’t examined millions of rounds of once fired Win brass, I don’t remember any glaringly bad pieces. Perhaps I wasn’t looking close enough, but I’m beginning to wonder if bulk packaged brass for handloaders (Win & Rem) is the same as what they are stuffing for their own factory loads (?) Are their loading machines checking for lousy flash holes & bad OAL brass? Does their QC do a good job of rejecting brass before loading it? My ideal preference would be to have once fired brass (Win would be fine) of known origin or even better yet, brass once-fired in my own gun.

Just food for thought...

…bug

madmo44mag · September 20, 2013, 10:54 AM

These discussions always give ma a good laugh.

There is always one or two folks that dig their heels in and get the knickers is a twist.
What works for one guy many not work for another.
What works in one gun may not work in another.
To trim, not to trim.
To roll crimp or to tapper crimp.
My point here is this: what works for you, works for you and don’t assume it will work for someone else.
I have guns that are picky to load specs and other that would eat a crayon if you put a primer on the end of it.
With that said, I have seen just about every manufacturer out there over the past few years has suffered in the quality control department excluding Norma.
From over sized to under sized, flash holes even missing, primer pockets under sized and on and on.
All I can say is sort it and make use of it the best way you can.
That that meets spec load as usual and that that does not use for plinking or trading fodder.
Manufactures are turning out ammo and components at record levels.
As long as I can get components on a regular basis I’m happy.
I can remember days when if I could get any kind of brass I was happy.
OK rant over – ROFLMBO!!!!

jepp2 · September 20, 2013, 07:45 PM

I must live a gifted life. I recently processed 1,000 rounds of Win 22-250 brass. Out of the batch I lost 2 cases. One caught in the powered trimmer and bent the neck inward (my bad). The second was a cold lap of the neck during forming. Since I started with 1005 total cases, I would up with 1,003 total cases. My case prep steps include:

- uniform primer pockets
- run an expander through the case necks
- trim the cases
- in/out chamfer
- de-burr the flash hole
- sort cases by weight within 1%

I was very impressed with the consistency of the brass.

Jimro · September 20, 2013, 08:16 PM

I noticed some tight primer pockets in the 6.5x55 winchester brand brass, but I had no issues with any other aspect of the brass. Getting TULA primers in there was a beast though. I had the same thing happen with 308 Win winchester brass using Fed GMM primers though, so maybe TULA isn't to blame.

The primers go in much easier on the first reload.

Jimro

chiefr · September 20, 2013, 11:22 PM

With over 40 yrs of reloading experiance, I have to agree with the OP on both WW and R-P brass.

The variance of case length I see in one bag alone can be over one tenth of an inch! Especially with the belted mags. I always have expected to trim and uniform my brass, but not to the extent of I do these days. Primer pockets oblong, I have had to reject some outright for flashing pressed in the case.

It was not all that long ago, I purchased some NOS Rem-Umc brass in 351 SL and WW in 30 Rem. All this brass was at least 40 years old and flawless out of the box.

Conversely, I bought a box of Norma brass in 6.5 Jap recently and case lengths were within .001. I did not have to trim this brass at all. I notice the same outstanding quality with Lapua and PPU. I find Starline brass of good quality too.

Brian Pfleuger · September 21, 2013, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jepp2

I must live a gifted life. I recently processed 1,000 rounds of Win 22-250 brass. Out of the batch I lost 2 cases. One caught in the powered trimmer and bent the neck inward (my bad). The second was a cold lap of the neck during forming. Since I started with 1005 total cases, I would up with 1,003 total cases. My case prep steps include:

- uniform primer pockets
- run an expander through the case necks
- trim the cases
- in/out chamfer
- de-burr the flash hole
- sort cases by weight within 1%

I was very impressed with the consistency of the brass.

It's all a matter of what you consider "gifted", I suppose. If I had to go through all that to get acceptable brass, I probably wouldn't bother reloading.

I buy Norma brass. My case prep is:

1)Remove from box
2)Seat primer
3)Add powder
4)Seat bullet

jwrowland77 · September 21, 2013, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Pfleuger

I buy Norma brass. My case prep is:

1)Remove from box
2)Seat primer
3)Add powder
4)Seat bullet

That's what I like about Lapua brass. Same steps for me.

1) remove from box
2) admire the brass
3) seat primer
4) add powder
5) seat bullet.

jepp2 · September 21, 2013, 08:57 PM

Quote:

It's all a matter of what you consider "gifted", I suppose. If I had to go through all that to get acceptable brass, I probably wouldn't bother reloading.

Then there would be more components available for the rest of us to buy!

I run Lapua brass through the same steps. Primer pockets are more uniform to start with, necks have some small dings in them the need to be expanded to round them out. Weight variation is about 2/3 what Winchester runs. Clearly better, but 3X the cost.

reynolds357 · September 21, 2013, 08:58 PM

Sad? Win brass is too sorry to be Sad. Sad would be an improvement.

If you want Win. brass to look good, put it up against Federal. Win. is awful. Federal would have to improve a bit to grade out at "awful."
Norma and Lapua are worth every cent they cost.

cheezhed · September 22, 2013, 12:42 AM

I can't complain about Winchester brass to much as most of what I acquired
was found on the ground left by someone else but I have had problems with new cases and bullets. I will often e-mail them when I have a problem and I have received coupons toward their products but components are so hard to find that I don't get a chance to use them.

September 18, 2013, 01:24 PM	#1
MJFlores Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2013 Posts: 539	Winchester Brass is just sad these days! Uggh. To start off...I'm a HUGE fan of Winchester firearms, ammo, and components...but that's rapidly changing. Winchester arms are now made in Portugal, but that's another matter. Over the winter I did a lot of reloading of .223, and I was tossing 25 cases per 100 due to horrible flash holes, and way under length case measurements. Monday evening I opened a brand new bag of Winchester 30/06 brass and began my normal visual inspections. Out of 50 I scrapped 5 cases...not bad at all! I dont measure for length until after sizing, so I deburred the flash holes on the remaining 45 and full length sized them. Last night I set up my trimmer and used a scrap Federal case to set my RCBS trimmer to trim to a length or 2.484. I always measure before trimming, then trim, chamfer, debur and measure again. Out of 45 brand new cases I have 8 that I could trim. A few were 3 to 4 thousandths under minimum which I don't like, with the majority being 7 to 10 thousandths below minimum trim length. What the hell?? I take my hunting ammo very seriously, and usually keep my BEST stuff for hunting and use the secondary stuff for target shooting... and am about to bag the whole bag of crap up and send it to Winchester. My experience with the 5 bags of .223 brass over the winter I figured was a fluke, but now with these cases I doubt I'll ever drop another penny for Winchester components. Looks like Norma, Hornandy, and Lapua will be my brass company. Still in dis-belief. Clearly Winchester is selling scrap as bags of new cases!

September 18, 2013, 02:59 PM	#4
Paul B. Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 1999 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,802	The only problem I've had with Winchester brass is the four bags of .280 Rem. brass I bought were all short one or two pieces of brass. I wrote Winchester with my complaint and they sent me a couple of $5.00 off coupons for any Winchester product. My thought is with all the shortages we're seeing, they're pushing brass and other components out just as fast as they can and quality control has been curtailed to eliminate only the worst of the worst. I got lucky with a deal on 500 rounds of 7x57 and 500 rounds if .358 Win. brass which is only made on a seasonal basis. With all the shortages, I'm guessing there isn't much of those two available right not. I did snag those two sets of brass about a month or so before the madness began. FWIW, every one of those cases was in good shape with no problems. Paul B. __________________ COMPROMISE IS NOT AN OPTION!

September 18, 2013, 03:39 PM	#6
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Being under trim to length isn't really an issue. "Trim to" is rather arbitrary. A lot of guys shooting in competition trim their brass shorter than spec anyway, just so they don't have to trim again. Particularly in regards to hunting ammo, case length makes almost no difference unless you're crimping. Even then, 0,004 isn't going to hurt anything. On the other hand, I can not fathom being OK with throwing away 10% of my brand new cases because they were so far out of spec. Just one more reason why I always say that Norma and Lapua aren't as expensive as people think they are. I started my reloading with Norma brass. I've since bought one bag of Winchester, only because Norma doesn't make that cartridge... never again. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

September 18, 2013, 05:33 PM	#7
jwrowland77 Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2012 Location: Conway, Arkansas Posts: 1,398	Winchester Brass is just sad these days! The only way I would be critical with brass, is if its A) for my Match ammo, or B) if the case has a crack in it. Some calibers are just plain hard to find new Win brass for. For hunting rounds, I would never be that critical. That's why I use Lapua brass for my Match ammo and Win for my hunting rounds.

September 18, 2013, 07:14 PM	#8
Kimber84 Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2013 Location: US Posts: 455	Winchester Brass is just sad these days! I'm done with Win brass as well... I had to toss a bunch of .243 brass due to cracked necks. This was all brand new brass as well.

September 18, 2013, 02:05 PM	#2
Mike38 Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2009 Location: North Central Illinois Posts: 2,710	I had similar but with Remington brass. Bought 100 pieces of 7mmSTW brass and had to throw away 10 of them. One or two, no problem, but 10% rejects is pretty bad. I don’t think Quality Control or as some places call it Quality Assurance is up to the same standards that it was 10-20 years ago. Companies now-a-days have a mind set of pleasing the share holders, and the customers are secondary. It’s not just the firearm industry, it’s all industries.

September 18, 2013, 02:14 PM	#3
BumbleBug Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2013 Location: Near Heart of Texas Posts: 870	The last 100 pieces of new Winchester .22-250 brass I bought was so bad I sent them back to Midway & had them replaced them with Remingtons. About 30% of the Win brass had the flashholes so off-center you could roll them on the table & spot them easily. FWIW... ...dr

September 18, 2013, 03:37 PM	#5
steveno Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Minden , Nebraska Posts: 1,407	yes the flash holes could be a problem but the brass being .004 to .010 under minimum trim length is hardly a problem. it is probably the same length they use on their loaded ammo

September 18, 2013, 08:30 PM	#9
myfriendis410 Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2011 Location: Lompoc California Posts: 274	I've been bitching about WW brass for a couple of years. One of my friends bought some .300 short mag brass and sent it ALL back due to irregular and off-center flash holes. Never even GOT to overall length. I disagree on the trim length not being overly critical. I want as even a neck tension as possible on my hunting stuff and I also want it to go where I aim it every time. That means doing everything in my power to make good reloads. Federal, Nosler (Federal), Norma and Lapua.

September 18, 2013, 08:56 PM	#10
MJFlores Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2013 Posts: 539	Yep, I pretty let down by Winchester right now...and will never buy Winchester brass again. I'm also done with Winchester primers. I realize I do it backwards from some people, but I consider hunting first and target shooting second. I reload so I can have the best hunting ammo I can obtain. I work way to hard to get a game animal in my scope and not have the best I can put together at my finger tip. I'm not a match shooter, my hunts are my big matches and I target shoot to prepare for my hunts. I just cant be dealing with crap components. On a better note, I made a special trip after work and bought a box of Norma .30/06 brass. Now that's some nice stuff and as far as I'm concerned well worth the money.

September 19, 2013, 01:25 AM	#11
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	I haven't bought Winchester brass, voluntarily, since 2003 or so. It's been crap for a long time. As Brian said... Premium stuff like Lapua and Norma doesn't look nearly as expensive, when you consider how many culls and how much work it saves you. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

September 20, 2013, 09:12 AM	#14
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Considering that the .30-06 neck is about 0.850" long, a trim length difference of even 0.020 is a variance of about 2% and the variance described by the OP is 1% or less. I'd be surprised if it was a Top 20 accuracy factor.

September 20, 2013, 10:33 AM	#15
BumbleBug Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2013 Location: Near Heart of Texas Posts: 870	I still like Winchester brass, just not brand-new When I spring for brand new brass (I consider it expensive), I mistakenly seem to expect something just a little bit better. In my case, one bad experience has definitely made me shy away from buying brand new Win brass. Typically, handloaders are DIY'ers that want to have more. That “more” could be lower cost, or higher quality, or a better sense of accomplishment or they just want more confidence in every shot they make – on target or game. I’m not a competitor, but I load my hunting ammunition as if for competition. Yes, I know 2 MOA is good enough for hunting but handloading plays to my confidence & satisfies my meticulous & perhaps slight OCD. I’ve always considered Winchester factory ammo excellent. While I haven’t examined millions of rounds of once fired Win brass, I don’t remember any glaringly bad pieces. Perhaps I wasn’t looking close enough, but I’m beginning to wonder if bulk packaged brass for handloaders (Win & Rem) is the same as what they are stuffing for their own factory loads (?) Are their loading machines checking for lousy flash holes & bad OAL brass? Does their QC do a good job of rejecting brass before loading it? My ideal preference would be to have once fired brass (Win would be fine) of known origin or even better yet, brass once-fired in my own gun. Just food for thought... …bug

September 20, 2013, 10:54 AM	#16
madmo44mag Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2008 Location: Ft.Worth, Texas Posts: 1,522	These discussions always give ma a good laugh. There is always one or two folks that dig their heels in and get the knickers is a twist. What works for one guy many not work for another. What works in one gun may not work in another. To trim, not to trim. To roll crimp or to tapper crimp. My point here is this: what works for you, works for you and don’t assume it will work for someone else. I have guns that are picky to load specs and other that would eat a crayon if you put a primer on the end of it. With that said, I have seen just about every manufacturer out there over the past few years has suffered in the quality control department excluding Norma. From over sized to under sized, flash holes even missing, primer pockets under sized and on and on. All I can say is sort it and make use of it the best way you can. That that meets spec load as usual and that that does not use for plinking or trading fodder. Manufactures are turning out ammo and components at record levels. As long as I can get components on a regular basis I’m happy. I can remember days when if I could get any kind of brass I was happy. OK rant over – ROFLMBO!!!! __________________ Texas - Not just a state but an attitude! For monthly shooting events in DFW visit http://www.meetup.com/TexasGunOwner-DFW

September 20, 2013, 07:45 PM	#17
jepp2 Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2008 Location: Loveland, CO Posts: 1,476	I must live a gifted life. I recently processed 1,000 rounds of Win 22-250 brass. Out of the batch I lost 2 cases. One caught in the powered trimmer and bent the neck inward (my bad). The second was a cold lap of the neck during forming. Since I started with 1005 total cases, I would up with 1,003 total cases. My case prep steps include: - uniform primer pockets - run an expander through the case necks - trim the cases - in/out chamfer - de-burr the flash hole - sort cases by weight within 1% I was very impressed with the consistency of the brass. __________________ NRA Benefactor Life member

September 20, 2013, 08:16 PM	#18
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	I noticed some tight primer pockets in the 6.5x55 winchester brand brass, but I had no issues with any other aspect of the brass. Getting TULA primers in there was a beast though. I had the same thing happen with 308 Win winchester brass using Fed GMM primers though, so maybe TULA isn't to blame. The primers go in much easier on the first reload. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

September 20, 2013, 11:22 PM	#19
chiefr Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2010 Location: AR Posts: 1,401	With over 40 yrs of reloading experiance, I have to agree with the OP on both WW and R-P brass. The variance of case length I see in one bag alone can be over one tenth of an inch! Especially with the belted mags. I always have expected to trim and uniform my brass, but not to the extent of I do these days. Primer pockets oblong, I have had to reject some outright for flashing pressed in the case. It was not all that long ago, I purchased some NOS Rem-Umc brass in 351 SL and WW in 30 Rem. All this brass was at least 40 years old and flawless out of the box. Conversely, I bought a box of Norma brass in 6.5 Jap recently and case lengths were within .001. I did not have to trim this brass at all. I notice the same outstanding quality with Lapua and PPU. I find Starline brass of good quality too.

September 21, 2013, 08:58 PM	#23
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	Sad? Win brass is too sorry to be Sad. Sad would be an improvement. If you want Win. brass to look good, put it up against Federal. Win. is awful. Federal would have to improve a bit to grade out at "awful." Norma and Lapua are worth every cent they cost. Last edited by reynolds357; September 21, 2013 at 09:03 PM.

September 22, 2013, 12:42 AM	#24
cheezhed Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2007 Posts: 302	I can't complain about Winchester brass to much as most of what I acquired was found on the ground left by someone else but I have had problems with new cases and bullets. I will often e-mail them when I have a problem and I have received coupons toward their products but components are so hard to find that I don't get a chance to use them.