Identify the target, and the backstop... hunting 101

MLeake · October 22, 2011, 03:45 PM

Unfortunately, this... person... failed to do so, and killed a Marine.

http://www.kansascity.com/2011/10/22...enly-shot.html

So far, no charges, but there should be.

Yet one more reason why many of us don't want hunters on our land, without express permission. If I don't know you, I don't want you on my property with a weapon.

ligonierbill · October 22, 2011, 05:18 PM

Also saw that. We tend to treat these as "hunting accidents", but from the report it was no accident. Aimed, fired, and hit his mark. Similar situation a couple years ago in Oregon, if memory serves. A teenage bear hunter shot a hiker on the trail. I don't know how that case came out, but firing a weapon without being sure of your target sounds like reckless behavior to me, no different than passing on a blind curve.

Brian Pfleuger · October 23, 2011, 07:46 AM

Yeah, that's no accident.

Criminally Negligent Homicide, at the minimum. If this sort of thing was handled more seriously it might dissuade a few of these idiots from shooting unidentified targets. Maybe not, since the chance of killing a person hasn't dissuaded them, but at least they'd do some time, regardless.

There is no excuse.

1goodshot · October 23, 2011, 07:56 AM

No accident, he aimed at the target without knowing what it was an fired. At a minimum its manslauter.

thallub · October 23, 2011, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Yeah, that's no accident.

Criminally Negligent Homicide, at the minimum.

+1
Wish the media and others would not call cases like this one "accidents". The term "accident" does not cover negligent deliberate acts.

Art Eatman · October 23, 2011, 08:24 AM

"...saw something moving in the brush and fired one shot..."

"It's bear season and something's moving, so it must be a bear." There are times when I get sorta emotional about this sort of thing and feel like city people should not be allowed to leave town. I've seen the same sort of thing with a few deer hunters.

Common sense just ain't real common.

RevGeo · October 23, 2011, 10:40 AM

There is absolutely no excuse for shooting without knowing 150% what the target is. This incident, if reported correctly, is criminally negligent homicide.

George

egor20 · October 23, 2011, 11:31 AM

Quote:

I get sorta emotional about this sort of thing and feel like city people should not be allowed to leave town. I've seen the same sort of thing with a few deer hunters.

Common sense just ain't real common.

+1 Art.

We call them Citified around here, we also call them a few other things that aren't allowed on TFL.

Negligent Homicide sums it up well.

sc outdoorsman · October 23, 2011, 12:24 PM

A coworker and his brother where hunting the same field not far from their parents house. The coworker had gotten to the field first and was in the stand. His brother was walking to the same stand not knowing which stand he had taken. My coworker did the same thing, saw movement and shot without verifying the target killing his brother. Both of them were experienced hunters one bad decision changed the whole family forever.

I have beaten this into my son's head as much as was beaten into mine. You don't even raise your gun without verifying what your target is and then make sure what is beyond that. I took him hunting in the same stand with me a couple of seasons. Then I put him in the stand for a whole season without a weapon so that he would see the movements of animals and know what he was looking for without the chance to shoot before I let him have a rifle in the stand by himself.

I tell my son this story before the start of each season, just to remind him we have the responsibility of life and death at our fingertips be sure to take it very seriously.

egor20 · October 23, 2011, 12:35 PM

Sound familiar SC

The first season my dad took me hunting (I think I was 12 or 13) he gave me a camera. "Look through that lens boy, then we'll see whats behind it later".

Life lessons

briandg · October 23, 2011, 01:06 PM

I personally want the word "accident" stricken from the dictionary. It is used millions of times each day, and seriously, how many times is it true? you put your glass too close to the edge, you ran your tires low on pressure, you carried your gun loaded and safety off, etc.

Every time unexpected events occur because of lack of foresight, we blame bad luck, god, or just blow off our responsibility by calling it an "accident."

There is an area south of here, a couple square miles of public land, that attracts every fool in this corner of the state to hunt deer. Go there, and you'll hear a shot every 15 minutes as people tramp through there and fire randomly to keep the deer stirred up.

When I was a teenager, I was wearing my bright red school jacket deer hunting, and an orange vest. I heard noise behind the tree I was backed up too, and when the noise stopped, I peeked around and found someone sighting iin on my white sleeve.

Accident? Bull. Shooting at a patch of white because it looks like a tail is insane. I did learn that walking into the woods with even a hankie showing is a serious risk. There is no bottom limit to stupidity, and there isn't enough orange on the planet to save you from some of the pinheads that we have in the woods these days.

Alaska444 · October 23, 2011, 02:27 PM

Understanding that truth that this is no accident, it just ain't smart to walk in the woods in hunting season with dark clothes. Yes, I agree, this is not an accident but a deliberate act of negligent homicide at the very least. However, you just have to have a little bit of self preservation in your own mind by not trying hard to look like a target in the first place. An orange jacket might have meant we never had a moron shooting away without identifying his target first.

Both identifying the target and not looking like a deer or bear is just hunter safety basics 101. Looks like the victim himself didn't take all the precautions he could have taken as well.

YARDDOG(1) · October 23, 2011, 02:28 PM

It's a shame, Some folks just need to STAY HOME

Y/D

Art Eatman · October 23, 2011, 06:28 PM

"Accident" generally comes from some mechanical problem. Sure, a human's decisions can affect it; bald tires on wet pavement come to mind.

But when it's strictly from a person's decision to do or not do, I'd have to say that's "Negligent".

Some commentary on that in the November "SWAT" magazine.

mquail · October 23, 2011, 07:07 PM

I was stationed at Forbes AFB, KS back in the 60's. Several airmen went to the range to fire their pistols. Instead of taking them back to the armory they brought their pistols back to the barracks to clean, not open bay but rooms. One of the airmen held his pistol in his hand and swept the room. The pistol wasn't empty and went off killing one of his friends. My commander sat in at the court martial. The airman was asked if he aimed and fired at his friend whom he killed. He had to answer "Yes". I don't remember what his sentence was but I do remember thinking it was an accident until my commander reminded me the shooter aimed his pistol at his friend and fired. This whole incident stayed with me all my life and I use it when people talk about accidental shootings when someone fired at someone else.

sc outdoorsman · October 23, 2011, 08:50 PM

In my mind my coworker made a horrible decision, but it was no accident. He aimed his rifle, took the safety off and fired the rifle. I know he has to live with it forever, but I believe he knows it wasn't as well.

Brian, your story reminds me of one of the last few times I hunted on public land. We had access to the public land from a small from area of private land we hunted. It was a good way from any public access road. I was in the stand and heard someone shoot a shotgun 5 times 300 yards or so from me. About 20 or so minutes later a medium size buck came in about 80 yards below my stand and I dropped him. I was hunting with a friend so I waited in the stand to let him finish his hunt. I guess it was around 45 minutes later I heard something and caught movement to my right. It was on the same trail the buck had followed. The idiot that shot the shotgun came in and asked if he wounded the deer. I told him I did't know but he was dead now and he kept walking through the woods like that he would be too.
I still get mad knowing he knew where I was. He heard me shoot and the bullet hit from my .30-06 and he still came in to my stand. If a deer had come between me and him I could have shot him and not known it. He never yelled or whistled or anything to let me know he was human. I don't how he could trust someone not to shoot him.
This happened around 15 years ago and I am fuming as I write this!!!

quepasakimosabe · October 23, 2011, 11:19 PM

We all get it during hunting class and if your in the military you get it some more...you are responsible for the projectile as soon as i leaves your weapon to where it ends up. Period. It is sad really, I cannot stand irresponsible shooters/hunters. I tend to shy away from people on a public range and if is see someone acting up I correct and sit down to make sure they are safe. My children have expressed an intrest in shooting but I do not feel they are ready. I got both kids, 5 and 6, a BB gun and gave about 1 hours of instruction with examples and basic directions and they messed it up pretty bad. Maybe I am a bad teachcer and should take them to some formal classes I dont know. The one thing I will not do is let my kids or anyone be unsafe with firearms around me.

"JJ" · October 24, 2011, 09:58 PM

Unfortunately several lives were changed forever in this case, but hopefully it can be used like SC's story as a lesson for others! I am going to share it with some off my hunting buddies! Stay safe!

markj · October 25, 2011, 02:57 PM

It is for this reason I wear hunter orange hats and vest when I go out at dawn and dusk to do chores during deer season. Some folks will shoot at anything in hopes of getting a deer tag filled.

I read a few years back a guy painted his cows orange cause one was shot every year during deer season.

Sure feel bad about that marine, he didnt deserve that at all.

MLeake · October 25, 2011, 06:36 PM

It's for this reason we don't take the horses out during deer season.

Same reason some farmers near where I grew up in Maine would paint "COW" on their cows - I never saw an entire cow painted orange, but I saw orange paint on cows.

Same reason I don't take my dogs hiking during deer season...

Aggravating, and entirely preventable if people would just identify targets and backstops.

October 22, 2011, 03:45 PM	#1
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Identify the target, and the backstop... hunting 101 Unfortunately, this... person... failed to do so, and killed a Marine. http://www.kansascity.com/2011/10/22...enly-shot.html So far, no charges, but there should be. Yet one more reason why many of us don't want hunters on our land, without express permission. If I don't know you, I don't want you on my property with a weapon.

October 23, 2011, 07:46 AM	#3
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Yeah, that's no accident. Criminally Negligent Homicide, at the minimum. If this sort of thing was handled more seriously it might dissuade a few of these idiots from shooting unidentified targets. Maybe not, since the chance of killing a person hasn't dissuaded them, but at least they'd do some time, regardless. There is no excuse. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

October 23, 2011, 12:35 PM	#10
egor20 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2010 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 1,824	sc outdoorsman Sound familiar SC The first season my dad took me hunting (I think I was 12 or 13) he gave me a camera. "Look through that lens boy, then we'll see whats behind it later". Life lessons __________________ Chief stall mucker and grain chef Country don't mean dumb. Steven King. The Stand

October 23, 2011, 02:28 PM	#13
YARDDOG(1) Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: GATOR COUNTRY HA HA HA! Posts: 721	It's a shame, Some folks just need to STAY HOME Y/D __________________ There's a GATOR in the bushes & She's Callin my name >Molly Hatchett<

October 24, 2011, 09:58 PM	#18
"JJ" Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2010 Location: NE Texas Posts: 576	Unfortunately several lives were changed forever in this case, but hopefully it can be used like SC's story as a lesson for others! I am going to share it with some off my hunting buddies! Stay safe! __________________ ~ "JJ"

October 22, 2011, 05:18 PM	#2
ligonierbill Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2007 Posts: 2,448	Also saw that. We tend to treat these as "hunting accidents", but from the report it was no accident. Aimed, fired, and hit his mark. Similar situation a couple years ago in Oregon, if memory serves. A teenage bear hunter shot a hiker on the trail. I don't know how that case came out, but firing a weapon without being sure of your target sounds like reckless behavior to me, no different than passing on a blind curve.

October 23, 2011, 07:56 AM	#4
1goodshot Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 2001 Location: chandler,az Posts: 929	No accident, he aimed at the target without knowing what it was an fired. At a minimum its manslauter.

October 23, 2011, 08:24 AM	#6
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	"...saw something moving in the brush and fired one shot..." "It's bear season and something's moving, so it must be a bear." There are times when I get sorta emotional about this sort of thing and feel like city people should not be allowed to leave town. I've seen the same sort of thing with a few deer hunters. Common sense just ain't real common.

October 23, 2011, 10:40 AM	#7
RevGeo Senior Member Join Date: September 18, 2011 Location: North Idaho Posts: 161	There is absolutely no excuse for shooting without knowing 150% what the target is. This incident, if reported correctly, is criminally negligent homicide. George

October 23, 2011, 12:24 PM	#9
sc outdoorsman Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Location: Western SC Posts: 208	A coworker and his brother where hunting the same field not far from their parents house. The coworker had gotten to the field first and was in the stand. His brother was walking to the same stand not knowing which stand he had taken. My coworker did the same thing, saw movement and shot without verifying the target killing his brother. Both of them were experienced hunters one bad decision changed the whole family forever. I have beaten this into my son's head as much as was beaten into mine. You don't even raise your gun without verifying what your target is and then make sure what is beyond that. I took him hunting in the same stand with me a couple of seasons. Then I put him in the stand for a whole season without a weapon so that he would see the movements of animals and know what he was looking for without the chance to shoot before I let him have a rifle in the stand by himself. I tell my son this story before the start of each season, just to remind him we have the responsibility of life and death at our fingertips be sure to take it very seriously.

October 23, 2011, 01:06 PM	#11
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	I personally want the word "accident" stricken from the dictionary. It is used millions of times each day, and seriously, how many times is it true? you put your glass too close to the edge, you ran your tires low on pressure, you carried your gun loaded and safety off, etc. Every time unexpected events occur because of lack of foresight, we blame bad luck, god, or just blow off our responsibility by calling it an "accident." There is an area south of here, a couple square miles of public land, that attracts every fool in this corner of the state to hunt deer. Go there, and you'll hear a shot every 15 minutes as people tramp through there and fire randomly to keep the deer stirred up. When I was a teenager, I was wearing my bright red school jacket deer hunting, and an orange vest. I heard noise behind the tree I was backed up too, and when the noise stopped, I peeked around and found someone sighting iin on my white sleeve. Accident? Bull. Shooting at a patch of white because it looks like a tail is insane. I did learn that walking into the woods with even a hankie showing is a serious risk. There is no bottom limit to stupidity, and there isn't enough orange on the planet to save you from some of the pinheads that we have in the woods these days.

October 23, 2011, 02:27 PM	#12
Alaska444 Junior member Join Date: April 3, 2010 Posts: 1,231	Understanding that truth that this is no accident, it just ain't smart to walk in the woods in hunting season with dark clothes. Yes, I agree, this is not an accident but a deliberate act of negligent homicide at the very least. However, you just have to have a little bit of self preservation in your own mind by not trying hard to look like a target in the first place. An orange jacket might have meant we never had a moron shooting away without identifying his target first. Both identifying the target and not looking like a deer or bear is just hunter safety basics 101. Looks like the victim himself didn't take all the precautions he could have taken as well.

October 23, 2011, 06:28 PM	#14
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	"Accident" generally comes from some mechanical problem. Sure, a human's decisions can affect it; bald tires on wet pavement come to mind. But when it's strictly from a person's decision to do or not do, I'd have to say that's "Negligent". Some commentary on that in the November "SWAT" magazine.

October 23, 2011, 07:07 PM	#15
mquail Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2011 Location: South Dakota Posts: 148	I was stationed at Forbes AFB, KS back in the 60's. Several airmen went to the range to fire their pistols. Instead of taking them back to the armory they brought their pistols back to the barracks to clean, not open bay but rooms. One of the airmen held his pistol in his hand and swept the room. The pistol wasn't empty and went off killing one of his friends. My commander sat in at the court martial. The airman was asked if he aimed and fired at his friend whom he killed. He had to answer "Yes". I don't remember what his sentence was but I do remember thinking it was an accident until my commander reminded me the shooter aimed his pistol at his friend and fired. This whole incident stayed with me all my life and I use it when people talk about accidental shootings when someone fired at someone else.

October 23, 2011, 08:50 PM	#16
sc outdoorsman Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Location: Western SC Posts: 208	In my mind my coworker made a horrible decision, but it was no accident. He aimed his rifle, took the safety off and fired the rifle. I know he has to live with it forever, but I believe he knows it wasn't as well. Brian, your story reminds me of one of the last few times I hunted on public land. We had access to the public land from a small from area of private land we hunted. It was a good way from any public access road. I was in the stand and heard someone shoot a shotgun 5 times 300 yards or so from me. About 20 or so minutes later a medium size buck came in about 80 yards below my stand and I dropped him. I was hunting with a friend so I waited in the stand to let him finish his hunt. I guess it was around 45 minutes later I heard something and caught movement to my right. It was on the same trail the buck had followed. The idiot that shot the shotgun came in and asked if he wounded the deer. I told him I did't know but he was dead now and he kept walking through the woods like that he would be too. I still get mad knowing he knew where I was. He heard me shoot and the bullet hit from my .30-06 and he still came in to my stand. If a deer had come between me and him I could have shot him and not known it. He never yelled or whistled or anything to let me know he was human. I don't how he could trust someone not to shoot him. This happened around 15 years ago and I am fuming as I write this!!!

October 23, 2011, 11:19 PM	#17
quepasakimosabe Member Join Date: October 10, 2011 Location: Camp Lejeune, NC Posts: 79	We all get it during hunting class and if your in the military you get it some more...you are responsible for the projectile as soon as i leaves your weapon to where it ends up. Period. It is sad really, I cannot stand irresponsible shooters/hunters. I tend to shy away from people on a public range and if is see someone acting up I correct and sit down to make sure they are safe. My children have expressed an intrest in shooting but I do not feel they are ready. I got both kids, 5 and 6, a BB gun and gave about 1 hours of instruction with examples and basic directions and they messed it up pretty bad. Maybe I am a bad teachcer and should take them to some formal classes I dont know. The one thing I will not do is let my kids or anyone be unsafe with firearms around me.

October 25, 2011, 02:57 PM	#19
markj Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: Crescent Iowa Posts: 2,971	It is for this reason I wear hunter orange hats and vest when I go out at dawn and dusk to do chores during deer season. Some folks will shoot at anything in hopes of getting a deer tag filled. I read a few years back a guy painted his cows orange cause one was shot every year during deer season. Sure feel bad about that marine, he didnt deserve that at all.

October 25, 2011, 06:36 PM	#20
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	It's for this reason we don't take the horses out during deer season. Same reason some farmers near where I grew up in Maine would paint "COW" on their cows - I never saw an entire cow painted orange, but I saw orange paint on cows. Same reason I don't take my dogs hiking during deer season... Aggravating, and entirely preventable if people would just identify targets and backstops.