Just caused a person to turn down a job offer,,,

[aarondhgraham]

Yesterday a casual acquaintance at my university told me,,,
He had accepted a job at Kean University located in New Jersey.

He is a recent Ph.D. graduate and was hired as an Assistant Professor

I don't know this gentleman all that well,,,
But I do know he has a few pistols and a rifle or two,,,
We have had a casual conversation or two about guns and shooting.

I asked him if he had researched the firearm laws in New Jersey,,,
His answer was, "Why, are they different than from here?"

He came to my office this morning and was very dejected,,,
He had done some research last night and as a result,,,
He is contacting Kean to withdrew his acceptance.

It's a crying shame as he was very excited about the position,,,
His words were that it never even occurred to him,,,
That any states laws would be so restrictive.

In one way I was wondering how he could not have known about New Jersey,,,
But then I thought about it for a moment and I must admit,,,
I didn't know either until I started hanging out here.

Now he's re-tailoring his job search to exclude 2A restrictive states.

I wonder how many people who grow up in gun-friendly states,,,
Are completely unaware how gun-unfriendly some other states actually are.

Aarond

.

[Ronbert]

Another sad thing is that your friend can't tell them the real reason else he'll be blackballed in the academic world. (unless he specializes in something where politics doesn't rule)

[geetarman]

It is a shame, but better to be upset BEFORE taking the job than later.

[aarondhgraham]

...your friend can't tell them the real reason else he'll be blackballed in the academic world.

I really don't think it's all that bad in academia,,,
In my college alone there are about 60 faculty members,,,
I know for certain that 8 of them have an Oklahoma carry permit.

We do seem to have more than our fair share of gun haters,,,
But in higher education it's by no means a sure thing.

This coming Sunday I'm taking the head of a Geology department to the range,,,
His kids are all out of the nest and he's looking for a new pastime,,,
I mentioned sport shooting and he is all ready to try it.

In public education that's another thing entirely,,,
One local principal is well known for his anti-gun attitudes.

He will ask each applicant for his school if they own a firearm,,,
I've been told by a member of his administrative staff,,,
No one who has answered yes has ever been hired.

I have heard from more than one K-12 teacher,,,
That they simply never ever bring up the subject of gun ownership.

Aarond

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[Ben Towe]

Aarond, where are you from? Principals have no hiring authority here, school boards do all hiring and firing.

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[pgdion]

"Why, are they different than from here?"

You done good Aarond (yep ... Aarond is wise I guess). No one wants to turn down a good job but there are other important things in life too. There are some states I just could never possibly live in and NJ is one of them. Better he find out now than after he moves there.

You know, I don't think I knew how bad other states were either before hanging out here ... I probably would never had thought to check. Now it would be a #1 priority.

[P5 Guy]

Well your friend could have worked in Jersey and lived in PA.
Gun laws and taxes are killer in NJ.

[Stressfire]

He will ask each applicant for his school if they own a firearm,,,
I've been told by a member of his administrative staff,,,
No one who has answered yes has ever been hired.

Correct me if mistaken, but as it has no bearing on the job or position, why would one even need to answer this question, much less answer it honestly?

It is understandably disappointing that your friend had to pass up a promising job. Was in a similar position a couple years ago when I applied for and got a job in Chicago. Yes, I could have just lived outside the city, but I refuse to turn over my income tax money to allow them to continue with the status quo.

Just caused a person to turn down a job offer,,,

I don't think it was anything you did - place blame where it belongs

[aarondhgraham]

Hello Ben:

I live in Oklahoma.

I double-checked this with a professor who coordinates student teaching and new teacher hiring programs here at OSU.

All faculty hires must be approved by the local school board,,,
In small schools the interviewing is almost always done by the principal,,,
In larger school districts the interviewing is often done by members of a team led by the principal,,,
But in either case the principal must approve an applicant before their application gets sent to the school board.

A person can apply directly to a school board,,,
In fact that's often the process where the school board collects the applications,,,
But in almost all cases (I didn't ask what the exceptions were) they are first subject to school principal approval.

In essence the approval to hire by the school board is a rubber stamp procedure,,,
Barring unusual circumstances the principal has accept/reject authority

Hello Stressfire:

Correct me if mistaken, but as it has no bearing on the job or position, why would one even need to answer this question, much less answer it honestly?

It's another invasive question,,,
But it's not prohibited by law (such as asking age),,,
So the people who are anti-gun can ask it with impunity.

Lie in your interview and you might face being fired for just that,,,
"We didn't fire Mr. Graham for owning guns,,,
We fired him for lying in his interview."

10 years ago when I applied to student teach I was asked that question,,,
They use the "zero tolerance for weapons" policy as justification,,,
I calmly stated that it was not relevant to my appointment,,,
Needless to say, I didn't do my student teaching there.

It's definitely a Catch-22,,,
Tell the truth and not get the job,,,
Refuse to answer them and not get the job,,,
Lie about it and lose your job later for lying in the interview.

Aarond

.

[Stressfire]

It's another invasive question,,,
But it's not prohibited by law (such as asking age),,,
So the people who are anti-gun can ask it with impunity.

Lie in your interview and you might face being fired for just that,,,
"We didn't fire Mr. Graham for owning guns,,,
We fired him for lying in his interview."

Refuse to answer and sue for discrimination? I know, I know, it would fly like a lead rake.

I'd likely ask how the question is relevant to the position at hand. If such a policy is cited then....I suppose my reply would be to advise them before I ever brought one to work

[twins]

12.5 million unemployed in the US and he turns down a good job due to his 2A beliefs?

Unemployed PhD = $0 income. Not sure how having no job is more important than 2A beliefs.

Good luck to your friend, as I know many PhD graduates that are currently unemployed with a heck of a time finding a job.

As far as 2A restrictive states, it would be very low on my job search chart in today's economy.

[berettaprofessor]

I really don't think it's all that bad in academia,,,
In my college alone there are about 60 faculty members,,,I know for certain that 8 of them have an Oklahoma carry permit

Of course you don't think it's that bad...you're in Oklahoma. Let's guess what the ratio might be in, say, Massachusetts....

[jasmith85]

I'm very happy to live in Tennessee where gun laws are much less strict, but if it was a high enough paying job I would be happy to move to New Jersey. My guns aren't important enough to me to turn down a quality of living increase.

[Justice06RR]

Did your friend have an option to live in a border state of NJ that is 2A friendly? Someone mentioned living in PA and working in NJ. It's sad to hear that he turned down a good position, but sometimes your passions take priority over your career.

For example I can never live permanently in CA or NYC, although I love both places and visited them both many times for vacation. Even with the great climate and topography of CA, or the draw of the big apple and all of NYC's fame, I can never move to places with such restrictive and obnoxious laws and high cost of living. Its nice to visit though for vacation thats for sure.

Btw, Aaron your posts resemble a poem

[MLeake]

twins and jasmith85, some will agree with you, and some won't.

I have opted not to apply for jobs in IL, NJ, MD, MA, NYC, and CA in the past exactly because of gun laws - plus other factors that can't be discussed here (politics and taxes).

I know others who feel the same way.

Edit: With regard to living in PA and working in NJ, seems to me I read an article of PA residents working in Atlantic City and having to pay income tax to both states... this was 2004 timeframe. Has that issue been resolved, or was the article incorrect?

[North East Redneck]

Sounds to me that the guy who turned down the job is standing up for his rights and principals. America needs more such people if it will survive as a free Republic.

[Rj1972]

I've wondered about this myself. While my wife doesn't have a carry permit, I wonder if whether one does or does not would get back to the school system during the background check.

I'd love to see someone who gets asked by the principal if they have any guns stand up and pat themselves down and reply "well, not on me.".

[Edward429451]

Good. I hope is the genius professor that NJ needed really bad and now wont get because of their anti-American practices.

[vytoland]

phd turns down a job..................bad move

take the job, get the experience and maybe a promotion. do your work first and play is some where down the list. responsibility and disapline are priorities.

[Double Naught Spy]

I really don't think it's all that bad in academia,,,

It really isn't and he won't be blackballed. I spent 20 years in academia and there were a variety of folks who were hunters and shooters who did well in various departments, LOL.

phd turns down a job..................bad move

Chances are, you are 100% correct. Unless he had multiple university offers, then turning down the job is likely not smart at all. If he doesn't care about academia and is okay with working in the private sector, then maybe the decision isn't too bad, or maybe it is given the current job market.

[cannonfire]

For what its worth, I gave up my guns to move to NJ to attend Rutgers. It drives me crazy not being able to clean my guns or go shoot them. And ranges that rent guns are few and far between. Been here 9 months and can't wait to leave... Only 3 months until graduation.


Also, NJ just recently passed a law that NJ government workers must live within NJ. They realized they had a problem with teachers living in PA but working in NJ. But I don't know if working at a public university like Rutgers makes a professor a government worker. Does anybody know the answer?

[nazshooter]

Originally Posted by vytoland

do your work first and play is some where down the list. responsibility and disapline are priorities.

Some of us don't see firearms or rights primarily as toys.

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[FoghornLeghorn]

There are lots of places I'd love to move to but won't. Not if I have a choice. Said places don't believe in the Constitution of the United States.

An absolute tragedy and travesty.

[Buzzcook]

Too bad he got talked out of a job. They're hard to come by in this economy.

BTW people in New Jersey do own guns. There are members of TFL who live there. New Jersey has several rifle ranges, both in doors and out.

There is no license needed to own a gun. So someone moving from another state would have no problem keeping their guns.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law...%29#New_Jersey

He would need a license to buy a new gun once in New Jersey and some types of weapons are restricted.

Hopefully the guy doesn't have a family he has to feed.

[dodge]

It's true that youo have to pay taxes in both states as I live in Pa but work in NY state. Pay state taxes in both states but usually my NY taxes break even so I don't have to pay them anything or I get a very small rebate. My wife would love to move there so I can be closer to work but a half hour drive isn't a problem for me to do. This way I can own any type of firearm that I want (with appropriate licenses) and still have a good income.