Gas vs. Inertia

Blindstitch · February 21, 2019, 12:00 PM

What are the pros and cons of either system. Is one any better with recoil or reliability? What do you prefer?

T. O'Heir · February 21, 2019, 01:52 PM

Gas operated will have less felt recoil.
Read this. The link to Part 2 works.
https://www.chuckhawks.com/gas_vs_recoil_shotguns1.htm

Virginian · February 21, 2019, 04:19 PM

I definitely prefer gas actions. I do clean the gas parts with a quick spray and wipe of the gas parts whether i shoot one round or 300 and have had no issues for 56 years. When shooting heavy Blue Dot reloads I usually could go at least 200 rounds before the knowledge of the soot build-up made me do a quick spray and wipe.
The two piece stocks do work to alleviate the recoil on inertia guns, but I can't stand them.

jmr40 · February 21, 2019, 04:40 PM

It depends on your needs. A gas gun is heavier. That combined with the gas system means less recoil. For someone participating in any of the clays games where the gun is carried a little and shot a lot I think gas guns are the best way to go.

I'm primarily a hunter who shoots some of the clays games in order to stay in practice. I like my inertia guns better. They tend to be a bit lighter and will take a little more abuse and dirt before reliability becomes an issue.

They do have more recoil, but no more than a double or pump shotgun of the same weight. But the 1/2 lb or so less weight is more important to me. I'm more likely to walk 5-8 miles in a days hunting and may fire a dozen shots on a good day. Maybe none. A round of sporting clays probably involves less than 1/4 mile of walking, but 100 rounds.

FITASC · February 21, 2019, 07:06 PM

Inertia guns tend to be lighter and transmit a LOT more recoil to the shooter. They also do not handle lighter loads as well. Gas guns tend to need more cleaning, are softer shooting and can handle lighter loads more readily. That makes them, IMO, more reliable across the board.

NoSecondBest · February 21, 2019, 07:24 PM

Having owned at least a dozen gas guns and seven or eight recoil (all Benelli) I'd have to say it's not a great deal of difference. I prefer, by a very slight edge, the gas guns for sporting clays and skeet, and the recoil operated for hunting. I have used the recoil guns for clays and did very well with them. Are they worse for a lot of shooting? I don't think they were in my case. I used to shoot ten to twelve rounds of sporting clays every week and did that for many years when I shot competitively. I shot equally well with both types of guns (I also owned quite a few O/U's, but that wasn't your question). What I like about the recoil guns is the fact that they can be taken down to their smallest parts in about two minutes or less once you get used to taking them apart, which allows some pretty quick cleaning. They are a lot easier to clean also, not having gas ports that always seem to be plugging up. I once had a Rem 1100 SA Skeet that I ran to stoppage to see how far it would go before it quit working. It was at around 3,000 rounds before it stopped. My Beretta's were a lot sooner, but still well into the several hundred range. That says that if you do any reasonable amount of cleaning with a gas gun it will not let you down at a greater rate than a clean recoil gun if you pay some attention to detail. I'd suggest you just shoot both and buy the one you like best. If one was distinctly better than the other you wouldn't see both types being used and priced about the same.

Blindstitch · February 22, 2019, 12:55 PM

Wow that's a bit of information I didn't know. Was planing on buying one for hunting and now things just got more complicated. Less recoil would be nice. Reliability in the field is an even bigger issue. But easy cleaning/less dirty with ability to fix in the field would be great.

jmr40 · February 22, 2019, 04:16 PM

Everyone has different recoil tolerances. My 7 1/4 lb Benelli isn't bad at all to me with field loads or even 3" steel shot loads. It is a bit sporty with 3" turkey loads, but that is a 1 or 2 shot per season deal.

I shoot a 100 round sporting clays course a few times a year and don't find the recoil objectionable. Most serious shooters use fixed breach O/U shotguns that give exactly the same recoil as an inertia gun and they don't complain. But it is true that a 7 3/4-8 lb gas gun will have considerably less recoil than either. And if you're the type to shoot several rounds of sporting clays on a regular basis is something to consider.

Most ranges will have guns you can rent or you might want to borrow some guns from friends and try them before you buy.

dgludwig · February 22, 2019, 06:11 PM

Quote:

If one was distinctly better than the other you wouldn't see both types being used and priced about the same.

Great point. Like most things in life, nothing is everything. Choosing an auto shotgun is a very individual decision and include personal factors to consider like recoil tolerance, handling properties, ammunition-type compatibility, cleaning and field-stripping simplicity/complexity, reliability in harsh conditions, factory customer service record, warranties, aftermarket customization possibilities and stock material/color to name a few.

On the other hand, though no shotgun can possibly be everything, most respectable brands, if chosen with some degree of care as to what the shooter needs/wants (i.e., are you hunting turkey or quail; competing at skeet or trap; interested in self-defense, etc.), can do most things effectively. Price might be the most relevant determining factor, all else being equal in practical terms.

Blindstitch · February 22, 2019, 09:52 PM

I'm not really recoil sensitive but I started a thread about wanting to get a 3 1/2 gun and people started talking about recoil and how they downgraded to 3 inch. So I thought if the semi removed some recoil why did people downgrade. I have a Mossberg 500 7.5 pound and Browning Citori 8 pounds 5 oz. and I would shoot all day long if I could. Done several 100-200 round days.

Didn't think a 2-25 round day would be that bad. Specifically thinking Ducks, geese, turkey and other things. Reliability is my #1 requirement. That and not having to pump a shotgun in a kayak. It can get a bit rocky.

That and I don't have a semi in my collection besides an SKS.

NoSecondBest · February 23, 2019, 02:03 AM

Here's what I like about my Benelli shotguns: I can take them down to the smallest components in under two minutes, wipe everything off with a paper towel if I'm in a hurry, and put it back together as fast as I took it down. It never jams, and feeds everything. No tools required to disassemble either. I've shot many days where I went through four rounds of clays and it didn't beat me up. Yes, it's more recoil than my gas guns, but it's simply not all that bad. So, for hunting I'd give the Benelli recoil operated guns two thumbs up. They have all the bells and whistles such as shim kits, five chokes, and total reliability.

Virginian · February 23, 2019, 08:44 AM

Everyone pimping for their favorites isn't going to help you with an answer. If you like to use it to paddle a boat or beat off snakes I do know Benelli has endorsed that.

NoSecondBest · February 23, 2019, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Everyone pimping for their favorites isn't going to help you with an answer. If you like to use it to paddle a boat or beat off snakes I do know Benelli has endorsed that.

So you're going to help him by jumping in and attacking my post. I don't see where you did anything positive except use your anonymity to take a shot at someone and not actually offer anything. Why don't you go away until you have something to offer the OP and not take shots at other posters.

Virginian · February 23, 2019, 12:52 PM

I was not specifically addressing your post, but if the shoe fits....

NoSecondBest · February 23, 2019, 02:02 PM

Quote:

I was not specifically addressing your post, but if the shoe fits....

No, you were. And the shoe fits you.... ignorance is never appreciated. Now, I predict that since you've gone off subject you'll insist on getting the last word. You're running true to form. Have it and then go away.

Blindstitch · February 23, 2019, 07:06 PM

Just came back from Mills Fleet Farm as Cabelas had some sort of electrical fire last night. I'm starting to think comfort might win the discussion. I'm not fond of the cross bolt safety but what I learned is I don't like it anywhere besides rear of the trigger guard. Or Tang safety. Tried a variety of Benelli, Franchi, Beretta, Winchester, Browning, Stoeger, Mossberg, Remington...

Ended up liking Winchester SX4, Browning Silver, Stoeger M3500/3000, and Mossberg 930/935. Of course the Mossberg fits the best with 13 3/4 inch length of pull. All others would need to be shortened to make it comfortable to shoot with light or heavy winter clothing. The Benelli's are out of my price range.

FAS1 · February 25, 2019, 10:50 AM

I have a couple Inertia shotguns from Benelli and Beretta and you would be amazed how clean they are after shooting them. They do kick a little more, but not nearly as bad as my O/U shotgun does. I prefer the inertia vs gas.

You might get some info out of this article that might help you decide.

http://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/ga...rtia-shotguns/

Drm50 · February 25, 2019, 08:38 PM

I don't have a lot of shotguns. I've hunted all my life with A5 Brownings & M12 Wins. As autos go I have never had any problems with my A5s. I have my dads, he was a grouse hunter and shot nothing but AA Wins and never had light load problems. Everyone in my family has at least two A5s with a long history of dependable use. My dad also shot Trap with one for years, thousands of rounds. If the friction rings are correctly set the gun will function fine. If a A5 shoots anything you put in it you need new rings. I saw a You Tube
video with Gunny where he was demonstrating recoil vs gas auto shotguns. He made the
statement that a gas gun was faster than recoil operated. I don't know if that's true or not
but if it is doesn't have any advantage. You can only recover from recoil so fast. The only other auto I have is a Rem 1100lt. 20g. I've had lots of other autos mostly 12g and I really
can't say one is better than the other. I'm just use to JMBs double shuffle.

jmstr · February 25, 2019, 11:56 PM

Quote:

I'm not really recoil sensitive but I started a thread about wanting to get a 3 1/2 gun and people started talking about recoil and how they downgraded to 3 inch. So I thought if the semi removed some recoil why did people downgrade. I have a Mossberg 500 7.5 pound and Browning Citori 8 pounds 5 oz. and I would shoot all day long if I could. Done several 100-200 round days.

I am not a heavily experienced shotgun shooter, but have a few shotguns and have fun.

3 1/2" Remington Express Super, 3" H&R Pardner Pump, 3" S&W 1012, and a couple double-barreled shotguns [1 OU and 1 SxS].

I have fired some stout 3" rounds through all of them, and the S&W [1 gas semi-auto] is softer than any other.

I will say that 4 shots of 1500fps 3 1/2" hunting rounds from the pump left me feeling 'done' for the day.

It felt like about 15 rounds of 3" stout shells, or about 25-30 rounds of 2 3/4" stout shells- all compared to the pump.

I remember my son shooting some rounds through the semi-auto, and then using the same rounds in a 28" pump, and yelling 'OW!'.

He was 18 and a big guy, but it felt 2x as much kick to him.

I have no experience inertia vs gas- yet. But, it is something that would be fun to try and compare.

IF I HAD to have a 3 1/2" shelled shotgun, and expected to use 3 1/2" shells through it on a regular basis- I'd get a gas semi-auto with a good track record.

However, I don't expect to use 3 1/2" shells very often.

At the time, it was my only 12G shotgun, and I wanted one that would 'do it all'.

Now- I am wondering if I should consider selling it and using the money for something else.

hmm

FITASC · February 26, 2019, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Of course the Mossberg fits the best with 13 3/4 inch length of pull.

That's a very short LOP; are you of very short stature, as in 5'4 or so? Remember, a shotgun is not shot like an AR or other rifle. And there is a lot more to fit than just LOP.

Blindstitch · February 26, 2019, 02:20 PM

Quote:

That's a very short LOP; are you of very short stature,

6 foot tall. It's a cross between what will fit and what will fit when wearing a tshirt at the beginning of season and thermal, tshirt, sweatshirt or two and heavy jacket at the end of season. 14 inch length of pull would be fine but some of those Benelli/Stoegers are 14 3/8. Why someone doesn't 3d print up a buttplate for them I don't know.

FITASC · February 26, 2019, 02:46 PM

And yet, my English friends, who are all of ~5'-8", have been fitted with stocks ranging from 14-7/8 to 15-1/4 - and they shoot pheasant wearing several layers of thick waterproof clothing.
I use close to 14-7/8 year round and I tend to shoot low-gun; yet I am only 2.5" taller than you.

I see way too many folks (and not saying you are one of them) who are used to M4s and very short stocks because of the gear and the way a rifle is shot think a shotgun should be the same; it usually isn't.

Blindstitch · February 26, 2019, 06:47 PM

Well all I have to say is you work with what works well. I just measured the length of pull on the Mossberg 500, Browning Citori and Savage Fox in my safe and they all come up at 14 inches and shoot well when i'm all bundled up.

Opening day of pheasant season here in Wisconsin was October 20th and I was out and it was snowing. Hope for the best but plan for the worst. Sure I could probably shoot a longer length of pull but if it gets hung up on my jacket and dinner fly's or hops away the trip is a bust.

bamaranger · February 27, 2019, 01:18 AM

Ok, I'm confused. I understand gas guns, think Rem 1100. Bamaboy owns an 11-87. Gas guns are recognized as softer shooting.

But...aren't recoil operated guns (Browning A5) and inertia guns (Benelli/Stoeger & others ) different in operation, ie, two separate action types? I see the terms and guns being used interchangeably in this thread. Is that exactly right?

Traditionally, the A5 has been thought of as reliable but a kicker and somewhat slow cycling. The inertial guns are usually touted as reliable, moderate kickers, and very fast cycling.

tangolima · February 27, 2019, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bamaranger

But...aren't recoil operated guns (Browning A5) and inertia guns (Benelli/Stoeger & others ) different in operation, ie, two separate action types? I see the terms and guns being used interchangeably in this thread. Is that exactly right?

You are right. They are not the same.

-TL

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

February 21, 2019, 01:52 PM	#2
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Gas operated will have less felt recoil. Read this. The link to Part 2 works. https://www.chuckhawks.com/gas_vs_recoil_shotguns1.htm __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

February 21, 2019, 04:19 PM	#3
Virginian Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2012 Location: Williamsburg, Va. Posts: 1,528	I definitely prefer gas actions. I do clean the gas parts with a quick spray and wipe of the gas parts whether i shoot one round or 300 and have had no issues for 56 years. When shooting heavy Blue Dot reloads I usually could go at least 200 rounds before the knowledge of the soot build-up made me do a quick spray and wipe. The two piece stocks do work to alleviate the recoil on inertia guns, but I can't stand them. __________________ What could have happened... did.

February 21, 2019, 04:40 PM	#4
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,809	It depends on your needs. A gas gun is heavier. That combined with the gas system means less recoil. For someone participating in any of the clays games where the gun is carried a little and shot a lot I think gas guns are the best way to go. I'm primarily a hunter who shoots some of the clays games in order to stay in practice. I like my inertia guns better. They tend to be a bit lighter and will take a little more abuse and dirt before reliability becomes an issue. They do have more recoil, but no more than a double or pump shotgun of the same weight. But the 1/2 lb or so less weight is more important to me. I'm more likely to walk 5-8 miles in a days hunting and may fire a dozen shots on a good day. Maybe none. A round of sporting clays probably involves less than 1/4 mile of walking, but 100 rounds. __________________ "If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong" Winston Churchill

February 21, 2019, 07:06 PM	#5
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,446	Inertia guns tend to be lighter and transmit a LOT more recoil to the shooter. They also do not handle lighter loads as well. Gas guns tend to need more cleaning, are softer shooting and can handle lighter loads more readily. That makes them, IMO, more reliable across the board. __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

February 22, 2019, 12:55 PM	#7
Blindstitch Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2013 Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin Posts: 2,693	Wow that's a bit of information I didn't know. Was planing on buying one for hunting and now things just got more complicated. Less recoil would be nice. Reliability in the field is an even bigger issue. But easy cleaning/less dirty with ability to fix in the field would be great. __________________ NRA Lifetime Member

February 21, 2019, 12:00 PM	#1
Blindstitch Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2013 Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin Posts: 2,693	Gas vs. Inertia What are the pros and cons of either system. Is one any better with recoil or reliability? What do you prefer? __________________ NRA Lifetime Member

February 21, 2019, 07:24 PM	#6
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	Having owned at least a dozen gas guns and seven or eight recoil (all Benelli) I'd have to say it's not a great deal of difference. I prefer, by a very slight edge, the gas guns for sporting clays and skeet, and the recoil operated for hunting. I have used the recoil guns for clays and did very well with them. Are they worse for a lot of shooting? I don't think they were in my case. I used to shoot ten to twelve rounds of sporting clays every week and did that for many years when I shot competitively. I shot equally well with both types of guns (I also owned quite a few O/U's, but that wasn't your question). What I like about the recoil guns is the fact that they can be taken down to their smallest parts in about two minutes or less once you get used to taking them apart, which allows some pretty quick cleaning. They are a lot easier to clean also, not having gas ports that always seem to be plugging up. I once had a Rem 1100 SA Skeet that I ran to stoppage to see how far it would go before it quit working. It was at around 3,000 rounds before it stopped. My Beretta's were a lot sooner, but still well into the several hundred range. That says that if you do any reasonable amount of cleaning with a gas gun it will not let you down at a greater rate than a clean recoil gun if you pay some attention to detail. I'd suggest you just shoot both and buy the one you like best. If one was distinctly better than the other you wouldn't see both types being used and priced about the same.

February 22, 2019, 04:16 PM	#8
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,809	Everyone has different recoil tolerances. My 7 1/4 lb Benelli isn't bad at all to me with field loads or even 3" steel shot loads. It is a bit sporty with 3" turkey loads, but that is a 1 or 2 shot per season deal. I shoot a 100 round sporting clays course a few times a year and don't find the recoil objectionable. Most serious shooters use fixed breach O/U shotguns that give exactly the same recoil as an inertia gun and they don't complain. But it is true that a 7 3/4-8 lb gas gun will have considerably less recoil than either. And if you're the type to shoot several rounds of sporting clays on a regular basis is something to consider. Most ranges will have guns you can rent or you might want to borrow some guns from friends and try them before you buy. __________________ "If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong" Winston Churchill

February 22, 2019, 09:52 PM	#10
Blindstitch Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2013 Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin Posts: 2,693	I'm not really recoil sensitive but I started a thread about wanting to get a 3 1/2 gun and people started talking about recoil and how they downgraded to 3 inch. So I thought if the semi removed some recoil why did people downgrade. I have a Mossberg 500 7.5 pound and Browning Citori 8 pounds 5 oz. and I would shoot all day long if I could. Done several 100-200 round days. Didn't think a 2-25 round day would be that bad. Specifically thinking Ducks, geese, turkey and other things. Reliability is my #1 requirement. That and not having to pump a shotgun in a kayak. It can get a bit rocky. That and I don't have a semi in my collection besides an SKS. __________________ NRA Lifetime Member

February 23, 2019, 02:03 AM	#11
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	Here's what I like about my Benelli shotguns: I can take them down to the smallest components in under two minutes, wipe everything off with a paper towel if I'm in a hurry, and put it back together as fast as I took it down. It never jams, and feeds everything. No tools required to disassemble either. I've shot many days where I went through four rounds of clays and it didn't beat me up. Yes, it's more recoil than my gas guns, but it's simply not all that bad. So, for hunting I'd give the Benelli recoil operated guns two thumbs up. They have all the bells and whistles such as shim kits, five chokes, and total reliability.

February 23, 2019, 08:44 AM	#12
Virginian Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2012 Location: Williamsburg, Va. Posts: 1,528	Everyone pimping for their favorites isn't going to help you with an answer. If you like to use it to paddle a boat or beat off snakes I do know Benelli has endorsed that. __________________ What could have happened... did.

February 23, 2019, 12:52 PM	#14
Virginian Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2012 Location: Williamsburg, Va. Posts: 1,528	I was not specifically addressing your post, but if the shoe fits.... __________________ What could have happened... did.

February 23, 2019, 07:06 PM	#16
Blindstitch Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2013 Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin Posts: 2,693	Just came back from Mills Fleet Farm as Cabelas had some sort of electrical fire last night. I'm starting to think comfort might win the discussion. I'm not fond of the cross bolt safety but what I learned is I don't like it anywhere besides rear of the trigger guard. Or Tang safety. Tried a variety of Benelli, Franchi, Beretta, Winchester, Browning, Stoeger, Mossberg, Remington... Ended up liking Winchester SX4, Browning Silver, Stoeger M3500/3000, and Mossberg 930/935. Of course the Mossberg fits the best with 13 3/4 inch length of pull. All others would need to be shortened to make it comfortable to shoot with light or heavy winter clothing. The Benelli's are out of my price range. __________________ NRA Lifetime Member

February 25, 2019, 10:50 AM	#17
FAS1 Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2010 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 541	I have a couple Inertia shotguns from Benelli and Beretta and you would be amazed how clean they are after shooting them. They do kick a little more, but not nearly as bad as my O/U shotgun does. I prefer the inertia vs gas. You might get some info out of this article that might help you decide. http://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/ga...rtia-shotguns/ __________________ *Glenn* *FAS1 SAFE*

February 25, 2019, 08:38 PM	#18
Drm50 Senior Member Join Date: November 10, 2014 Posts: 1,382	I don't have a lot of shotguns. I've hunted all my life with A5 Brownings & M12 Wins. As autos go I have never had any problems with my A5s. I have my dads, he was a grouse hunter and shot nothing but AA Wins and never had light load problems. Everyone in my family has at least two A5s with a long history of dependable use. My dad also shot Trap with one for years, thousands of rounds. If the friction rings are correctly set the gun will function fine. If a A5 shoots anything you put in it you need new rings. I saw a You Tube video with Gunny where he was demonstrating recoil vs gas auto shotguns. He made the statement that a gas gun was faster than recoil operated. I don't know if that's true or not but if it is doesn't have any advantage. You can only recover from recoil so fast. The only other auto I have is a Rem 1100lt. 20g. I've had lots of other autos mostly 12g and I really can't say one is better than the other. I'm just use to JMBs double shuffle.

February 26, 2019, 02:46 PM	#22
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,446	And yet, my English friends, who are all of ~5'-8", have been fitted with stocks ranging from 14-7/8 to 15-1/4 - and they shoot pheasant wearing several layers of thick waterproof clothing. I use close to 14-7/8 year round and I tend to shoot low-gun; yet I am only 2.5" taller than you. I see way too many folks (and not saying you are one of them) who are used to M4s and very short stocks because of the gear and the way a rifle is shot think a shotgun should be the same; it usually isn't. __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

February 26, 2019, 06:47 PM	#23
Blindstitch Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2013 Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin Posts: 2,693	Well all I have to say is you work with what works well. I just measured the length of pull on the Mossberg 500, Browning Citori and Savage Fox in my safe and they all come up at 14 inches and shoot well when i'm all bundled up. Opening day of pheasant season here in Wisconsin was October 20th and I was out and it was snowing. Hope for the best but plan for the worst. Sure I could probably shoot a longer length of pull but if it gets hung up on my jacket and dinner fly's or hops away the trip is a bust. __________________ NRA Lifetime Member

February 27, 2019, 01:18 AM	#24
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,312	confused Ok, I'm confused. I understand gas guns, think Rem 1100. Bamaboy owns an 11-87. Gas guns are recognized as softer shooting. But...aren't recoil operated guns (Browning A5) and inertia guns (Benelli/Stoeger & others ) different in operation, ie, two separate action types? I see the terms and guns being used interchangeably in this thread. Is that exactly right? Traditionally, the A5 has been thought of as reliable but a kicker and somewhat slow cycling. The inertial guns are usually touted as reliable, moderate kickers, and very fast cycling.