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Old March 3, 2019, 10:45 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by TruthTellers
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Old March 3, 2019, 12:07 PM   #127
Bartholomew Roberts
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Foghorn, the Clinton agreement was renounced by S&W way prior to 2006. This is the original agreement: https://clintonwhitehouse4.archives....0000317_2.html

Very clearly, the new owners of S&W did not implement that. You point to the existence of the internal lock as evidence they didn’t renounce the agreement; but as a finance person, surely you appreciate why a manufacturer who has already sunk money into developing an unnecessary internal lock would keep producing it after retooling their line.

Next, you point to sales figures way after S&W renounced the agreement as evidence that a boycott is not working; but nobody was boycotting S&W at that time since it had gone to new ownership who refused to abide by the agreement.

Boycotts do work. But whether they work or not, I’m not going to knowingly/willingly fund someone who will use that money to try and take my rights.
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Old March 3, 2019, 10:30 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts View Post



Boycotts do work. But whether they work or not, I’m not going to knowingly/willingly fund someone who will use that money to try and take my rights.

Agree with all else you wrote, but especially your closing thoughts. Standing on principle is not about whether you are guaranteed to win. It is a stand driven by conscience.
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Old March 4, 2019, 01:38 AM   #129
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^ I don't really care if Benchmade stays in business or goes under, the bottom line is I'm not handing them a penny for anything they make because their objectives and beliefs when it comes to the 2nd amendment aren't the same as mine.

They can say they're all for guns, but as a company what is it that they've DONE to advance 2A? Talk is cheap, actions and donations are not and from all I've seen, Benchmade is as anti-gun as the politicians they support.
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Old March 4, 2019, 09:37 AM   #130
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No problem destroying guns that were got off the street AND that are unsafe or have had serial numbers ground off etc

But guns that were turned over because someone did not know what do do with them or family did not want them.
These guns should have been checked over by a gun Smith and resold at a reputable gun shop.
All funds received should have went to police and fire dept. for up keep of equipment etc.
I will not be buying a BM knife or shop at Dicks..target or any other place that will effect my right to bare arms of any type I choose
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Old March 6, 2019, 08:43 AM   #131
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Boycotts do work.
Yes, but the protest against S&W was not a boycott. It was braggadocio of the equivalent of a few internet commandos and had little effect.

Again, even a cursory examination of their financials clearly demonstrates that the "boycott" failed miserably. In three years, just in C&CE, they increased $39 million.

Other gun manufacturers also increased in gross sales as well.

Prior to that political climate, sales were down. As were other gun manufacturers.

This was an industry phenomenon and had nothing to do with any boycott. As usual, correlation does not imply causation.

Yes, S&W suffered a decline in sales of revolvers, but because of the lock, substandard manufacturing practices and poor customer service. That had little or nothing to do with protest. Purists/collectors such as myself simply opted to buy used. To this day I will only buy pinned and recessed Smith revolvers.

Second, any renunciation of the klinton pact was a mere public relations stunt. The lock remains and, purists continue to eschew the revolvers. If they had truly renounced the conspiracy, they would have spent the money to retool and get rid of the lock (which is not only hideously ugly, but it's also a hazard to operation).

They would have seen an upsurge in sales as a result.

They only gave us lip service, counting on the gullibility of a naive few to buy what they're selling.
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Old March 6, 2019, 12:50 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Foghorn Leghorn
Yes, but the protest against S&W was not a boycott. It was braggadocio of the equivalent of a few internet commandos and had little effect.

Again, even a cursory examination of their financials clearly demonstrates that the "boycott" failed miserably. In three years, just in C&CE, they increased $39 million.
I'm sure you read post #119, because you responded to it. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.
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Old March 6, 2019, 07:58 PM   #133
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RIP Benchmade Knives

I guess the British holding company unloaded S&W at a huge loss because S&W was making so much money off the Clinton deal. I was around back then and S&W was hurting. And the Clinton deal was far more than putting an optional lock mechanism in the revolvers. Safety Lock got a slow start when they bought S&W because they retained the lock, but they gained momentum by flatly cancelling all arrangements with state of MA and Clinton admin.
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Old March 7, 2019, 07:50 AM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoghornLeghorn
Again, even a cursory examination of their financials clearly demonstrates that the "boycott" failed miserably. In three years, just in C&CE, they increased $39 million.
S&W renounced the Clinton agreement in 2000 after Bush won. Your C&CE analysis started in 2006 and continued to 2009. How are you claiming any kind of relation?

Quote:
Second, any renunciation of the klinton pact was a mere public relations stunt. The lock remains and, purists continue to eschew the revolvers. If they had truly renounced the conspiracy, they would have spent the money to retool and get rid of the lock (which is not only hideously ugly, but it's also a hazard to operation).
Yes, you said that the first time. Ignoring my reply and saying it again does nothing to convince me and it is still factually wrong. The Clinton Agreement consisted of many details besides the internal lock, which were never implemented. Renouncing those wasn’t a publicity stunt as they were much worse than an internal lock. Click on that link and give it a read. The internal lock was already implemented and I suspect it remains because retooling an entire line of revolvers to remove a safety feature doesn’t make good business sense, even if it increases revolver sales 10% or so.

Last edited by Bartholomew Roberts; March 7, 2019 at 07:56 AM.
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Old March 7, 2019, 08:14 AM   #135
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Except not every revolver has the lock. When I bought my 642-1 a few years ago, I had the choice of lock or no lock (I went with no lock), so in that sense, it would make MORE sense to stop the lock than have two production runs of the same gun - one with and one without.
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Old March 7, 2019, 02:21 PM   #136
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S&W was damaged by their decision, as was Ruger. It took years for both company's sales to go back up.
Ask Dick's how their sales are going.
We do make a difference.
We made a difference because we ate our own.

As for Dick's, yeah, we hurt their sales, but we didn't make a difference. Dick's did NOT change their stance one iota. They knew they would lose sales and adjusted accordingly. I know plenty of folks celebrated because Dick's didn't make as much money, but it isn't like Dick's went into the red. They speedily adapted and are doing well.

Let's see how they are doing....
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/c...-goods/revenue

Actually, not too bad. Their growth is down as they have made some cuts, but their revenue is solid.

Looking at profit, it is down, but they still made a 2.52 billion in profit in 2018.
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/c...s/gross-profit

How is their stock price for the last year when we put the squeeze on them? Steadily increasing...
https://www.google.com/search?client...-tAWNkZT4Ag2:0

Sportsman's Warehouse isn't doing as good and we didn't boycott them...

In looking at Dick's dividend history, it continues to increase since 2013.
https://www.nasdaq.com/symbol/dks/dividend-history


I wonder how the NRA is doing? We aren't even boycotting them and they are taking a beating!
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/we...her-2018-12-15
https://www.opensecrets.org/news/201...straight-year/

Dick's is doing much better than the NRA for the last 2 years.

So when we talk about how we really put the screws to Dick's, they seem to be taking it really well. In fact, they seem to be quite strong AND have done so while maintaining their anti-gun position.
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Old March 7, 2019, 02:50 PM   #137
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Most pro-gun people are non-proactive (I think I made up a word) I honestly don’t think many pro-gun people actually vote. Being anti-gun seems to be benificial these days, at least from my world view. Eventually the pro-gun part of life will collapse under the weight of progressive ideas. Progressive ideology doesn’t recognize the unfettered right to gun ownership so as time progresses more companies will support antigun politicians. Knives are safe for now, and a knife maker could benefit from antigun policies... at least for the foreseeable future. Knives are on the political radar and greasing a few palms with money can help keep knives from the spotlight.
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Old March 7, 2019, 03:31 PM   #138
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Reference Double Naught Spy's comments on Dick's, it should be noted that Dick's is not a "gun" store. Never was, and certainly isn't now. Firearms, at least at the two Dick's stores that I've been into in my area of operations, are (or were -- I haven't been into one for a couple or three years) very much a small part of their operation. The gun department is stuck off in a back corner on the second floor, and I almost never saw anyone actually staffing the counter. They seemed to be much more about selling cheap, molded kayaks, exercise and workout clothing and gear, running shoes, and some sports equipment.

My take is that they decided to take the hit on gun sales income because they knew there wasn't much income there to lose anyway, and they hoped to attract more SJW type customers by "taking a principled stand" (:barf: ).

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; March 7, 2019 at 07:42 PM.
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Old March 7, 2019, 03:51 PM   #139
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You said it better
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Old March 8, 2019, 09:19 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by rickyrick View Post
Most pro-gun people are non-proactive (I think I made up a word) I honestly don’t think many pro-gun people actually vote. Being anti-gun seems to be benificial these days, at least from my world view. Eventually the pro-gun part of life will collapse under the weight of progressive ideas. Progressive ideology doesn’t recognize the unfettered right to gun ownership so as time progresses more companies will support antigun politicians. Knives are safe for now, and a knife maker could benefit from antigun policies... at least for the foreseeable future. Knives are on the political radar and greasing a few palms with money can help keep knives from the spotlight.
Quote:
I honestly don’t think many pro-gun people actually vote. Being anti-gun seems to be benificial these days, at least from my world view. Eventually the pro-gun part of life will collapse under the weight of progressive ideas. Progressive ideology doesn’t recognize the unfettered right to gun ownership so as time progresses more companies will support antigun politicians.
Altho there are fairly large 'camps' at both ends of the 'gun' spectrum, It is NOT binary, "either-or"..Conservative or progressive, nothing in between. So much in the middle. Many so called 'progressives' own guns, support the 2A, EDC, like me. Many 'conservatives' also own guns, support the 2A and EDC BUT think that some sort of 'gun control(not a 4 letter word) 'may' be a good idea.
So, IMHO..it's not as simple as 'pro-gun' or 'anti-gun'.
Quote:
Progressive ideology doesn’t recognize the unfettered right to gun ownership
Not that simple, IMHO. Conservative ideology doesn't either.
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Old March 8, 2019, 10:07 AM   #141
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Sometimes it's not about hurting the offender, it's about pride in what you believe. I don't care about Dicks, Levi's, Gander Outdoor's, or Benchmades sales.
I just want to say I stick to my principles and prove it with my wallet.

This knife arrived this week and was going to be a Benchmade Bugout.

Last edited by gnystrom; March 8, 2019 at 02:43 PM.
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Old March 8, 2019, 06:25 PM   #142
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Quote:
Reference Double Naught Spy's comments on Dick's, it should be noted that Dick's is not a "gun" store.
Right, so the boycott really pretty much just failed. Like I said, we do best when we eat our own. We can hurt gun companies, but we don't seem to be doing well with non-gun companies...like that 20+ year boycott of Citibank. You would think that by now, they should be caving in if we were truly having an impact. Not really. Target? Wells Fargo? Other non-gun businesses? Neh. It makes us feel good, but the truth of the matter is that far too many people boycotting will cheat out of convenience (excuses are numerous), and other far too few people will boycott - us really not having enough people to really make a difference to the business, not such that it will change its business practices. We will feel good ourselves knowing that we voted with our dollar elsewhere, but 'elsewhere' probably won't have a clue as to why we even decided to go with them just like the boycotted business won't miss us.

Dick's is thriving without us.
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Old March 8, 2019, 07:09 PM   #143
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Dick's is thriving because they went the larger demographic - the soccer mom and kids versus the gun owner......and like it or not, in that comparison we lose EVERY.SINGLE.TIME. They are buying expensive team gear for the kids, gym clothes for themselves, exercise equipment, hubby is buying golf gear, etc. ALL of those items have margins from 40 to 100% and more...........let's get real here; WE are the abused, adopted red-headed step child to any sporting goods store/chain.
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Old March 8, 2019, 08:40 PM   #144
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I've been done with Benchmade for quite a few years. I have a few of their knives, but I don't think they are worth the money they are charging, especially their "Gold Class" stuff. Their blades are thinner than most other brands at .12". Spyderco blades are .14" thick and they come in just about every blade steel under the sun. They don't have as many different designs as Benchmade, but they make good solid knives. I have really taken a liking to Zero Tolerance Knives. They are a bit more than the regular Benchmades, but they use premium steels and are overbuilt. The blade on my 562 CF is made of M390 and has a blade thickness of .16". I also have a few Microtechs including a Socom and LUDT. Great knives that are far better made than Benchmades.
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Old March 9, 2019, 08:05 AM   #145
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I have read most of these posts. A few suggested that Benchmade should stand in with the pro gun crowd.

I can't help but wonder what would happen to knife sales if all guns were suddenly banned and could that be reasoning for their philosophy.
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Old March 9, 2019, 08:54 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by L2R View Post

I can't help but wonder what would happen to knife sales if all guns were suddenly banned and could that be reasoning for their philosophy.
ahh.........there it is, the conspiracy theory! Not just a simple conspiracy, but a multiple! The ultimate destruction of all guns and then, unprecedented sales(and profits of course!) of knives to folks than need to replace their EDC! Brilliant!

OMG........the best laugh I've had in a long, long time.
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Old March 9, 2019, 10:15 AM   #147
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I have read most of these posts. A few suggested that Benchmade should stand in with the pro gun crowd.

I can't help but wonder what would happen to knife sales if all guns were suddenly banned and could that be reasoning for their philosophy.
And when knife attacks go up, they'll ban knives and we will look like the UK
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Old March 9, 2019, 10:31 AM   #148
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The fact is that a LOT (if not all) of Benchmade's knives fall within a general category of "weapons." That makes them "arms" within the context of the Second Amendment so, if Benchmade had any sense, they would see that their products are protected by the Second Amendment just as much (or as little!) as firearms. So the reality is that they should stand with the pro-gun crowd, because it's a virtual certainty that if the anti-gunners ever succeed in eliminating private ownership of guns, knives will be next on their agenda.

Of course, there's a lot of money to be made by an anti-gun knife company before that day arrives.
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Old March 9, 2019, 02:20 PM   #149
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We will feel good ourselves knowing that we voted with our dollar elsewhere, but 'elsewhere' probably won't have a clue as to why we even decided to go with them just like the boycotted business won't miss us.
I can’t control the whole world. I can only do what I think is right, whether it benefits me or not. And I won’t support companies who support anti-2A politicians.

Luckily, it is ‘t much of a sacrifice. When I was growing up and went to the grocery store, you had four choices for apples: Red, Yellow, Green, or no apples. Now I have to Google the six hundred varieties of apples in my non-fancy supermarket to even have a clue what I am buying. Now I can buy organic varieties of an apple I’ve never heard of before that is grown in an orchard that employs only disabled veterans and splits their profits between an alapaca rescue and the NRA. We have plenty of choices.

And to be clear, I also believe in forgiveness for the sincerely repentant. Benchmade is going to the NRA show according to Tom Gresham, so they have an opportunity to come clean. I’m skeptical they will since they’ve managed to sidestep every opportunity thus far like a teenage meth addict playing Frogger.
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Old March 9, 2019, 10:51 PM   #150
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This knife arrived this week and was going to be a Benchmade Bugout.


Nice looking knife! What brand and model? I was thinking of a Mini Barrage this spring, but looking elsewhere now.
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