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Old March 22, 2019, 08:07 AM   #151
zukiphile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBM900
Gun owners need to admit that on our current trajectory the 2A is done in 10-20 years (max)
Why do they need to admit that?

I'd be curious to know when any of you individually began to follow these issues, because the starting point for the trend will influence the direction shown for the trend.

I could understand despair in someone born during WWII. A starting point of 1960 would show people buying more or less what they pleased with a terminating point involving tons of regulation.

I started noting this issue in the mid 1970s. The big problem was "Saturday night specials" allegedly used almost exclusively in crime, and Morton Grove outlawed all firearms. Bizarre "sporting purpose" requirements were imposed on imported pistols. Then Congress and WJC saved us from the deadly 11th round and bayonet lugs for a decade.

End your trend in 1994, and things look pretty rough.

However, 2007 brings Heller and legally secure individual carry became common. Little children were slaughtered in Newtown, the very sort of thing that sent Austrailians over the edge, and Sen Feinstein's grotesque cynicism paid had no legislative result. Measure your trend from 2004 and this looks like a renaissance.
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Old March 22, 2019, 08:14 AM   #152
rickyrick
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Yes there is - If I am in a place, there is a man with a gun there. Me.
good on you but most places large venues, there will not be a person with a gun there. Are you statng that you will violate a law and carry in a
Prohibited place.
Quote:
Oklahoma, Constitutional Carry this year, Kentucky, same thing, pretty big news. Arizona defeated all anti gun bills so far this year,
that is great news, I wish that would happen all over the country. Doesn’t help the rest of us much. I still see gun restrictions being emplaced at a faster rate than the other way. Much progress on our side can be turned around in an election or two. Fly ove states are bucking the system for now, but they will flip, or the nation will become more divided. The problem is too many people think things are going fine, they are being complacent, they count on a constitution that isn’t worth as much, they don pay attention to what’s being taught in schools. If you don’t know what’s being taught in schools, you might want to check it out. They have started voting, even more will start voting this year and a steady stream will continue to flood our elections. I’ve heard the recordings of teachers for a few years now. The kids are being indoctrinated to lean in one political direction. They are being taught that the other side is immoral. Vote and don’t be complacent.
This is all beside the point, because there’s nothing to guarantee that a law abiding citizen is going to be there with a gun at the next event, maybe a few fly over states allow carry of a firearm at any venue at any time no matter what, but that’s not how it is in the rest of the country. We need another answer besides the good guy with a gun slogan. We need to stop saying such things because they aren’t real or attainable. They only serve the speaker of those words. The most likely scenario is that these events will continue to happen and the shooter will most likely be stopped when the police arrive after many people have already been lost. There is a low chance that an armed civilian will be there, a low chance but a chance all the same, I suppose.
I won’t detract from the small wins in some less densely populated areas either, I’m glad that they can carry a little more freely. Just not the norm for the rest of the country and it will not allow many mass shootings to be stopped in a quick manner.
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Old March 22, 2019, 08:18 AM   #153
BBarn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBM900 View Post
Gun owners need to admit that on our current trajectory the 2A is done in 10-20 years (max)
Gun owners need to admit that we have lost and that THE LEFT IS WINNING ITS WAR AGAINST THE 2ND


I'm saying we first need to come to grips with reality
I remember when citizens could carry concealed in very few states and the vast majority of states had no system permitting concealed carry. I remember when you were required to show an ID and have your name, address, and what pistol ammo you were buying recorded. I remember when new automatic pistol and detachable rifle magazines were limited to 10 rounds.

I'm not attempting to minimize the assault on the 2nd Amendment at the moment, but I do remember a time when the arms and ammunition were regulated as much or more than they are now. And years ago I never expected to see the option of concealed carry we have today in so many areas of the country.

So the facts (reality) are that some things have been worse in relatively recent times. Therefore I'm not buying the suggestion that the 2nd is done in 10-20 years, or that we have lost.

Edit - I see Zuki basically beat me to it.
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Old March 22, 2019, 08:31 AM   #154
davidsog
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I do find it somewhat interesting that half a century ago we didn't have nearly the level of mass shootings we have today,
Half a century ago we did not have a generation raised on entitlement instilled with the a firm belief they are best who can do anything while being responsible for nothing. We allowed an education system to indoctrinate them that all our foundations of individual liberty and responsibility are wrong. They believe they can succeed and will not make the mistakes of history.

We never taught them life is about failure and success comes when you pick yourself from failure

50 years ago we had still had a majority raised on humility, responsibility, and earning their way. Back then people did not think it was normal much less being "better educated" to pay almost half their income in taxes, 16 bucks to cross a bridge, and watch the garbage/feces pile up on the sidewalk. What is so laughable is they want to solve your problems too.
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Old March 22, 2019, 09:03 AM   #155
davidsog
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Food for thought:




https://crimeresearch.org/2017/04/nu...s-69-1-murder/





This is not a hardware issue, it is a socio-economic problem.
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Old March 22, 2019, 09:17 AM   #156
PhotonGuy
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Agreed

I've been running into this attitude for some time now....
If you speak of how truly screwed we are, you're met with "you're a defeatist"
Stating facts isn't being a defeatist, it's simply stating facts

On the contrary I believe that this burry your head in the sand mentality is what helped get us to this point. Gun owners now don't want to come out of their safe-spaces and admit that at this point we are eff'ed. So their go-to defensive mechanism is to deny the problem and attack the messenger "You're just a defeatist!"

Gun owners need to take their medicine
Gun owners need to admit they've been far too lazy for far too long
Gun owners need to admit that on our current trajectory the 2A is done in 10-20 years (max)
Gun owners need to admit that we have lost and that THE LEFT IS WINNING ITS WAR AGAINST THE 2ND

"Oh so you're saying we should just give up!"

Nope
I'm saying we first need to come to grips with reality
We could double our current efforts and it will not stop them
We could quadruple our current efforts.....but it won't mean a thing
I believe you're partially right but if anything the left had its chance for a victory during the Obama administration and they would've had more of a chance had Hillary won in 2016. As it was, though, that wasn't the case and I would say that during the Obama administration that the pendulum swung in our direction. From what I know lots of leftists were not to pleased with Obama because he didn't work to establish more gun control like they wanted him to. Then when Hillary lost in 2016 so many leftists went nuts. Now during the Trump administration is our chance to win. When Trump won the White House in 2016 there was also a republican controlled Senate and a republican controlled House. As of now the Democrats have taken control of the house but its more just a blue splash, not a blue wave. Yes I do believe that lots of people who believe in gun rights have gone to sleep during the Trump administration and they need to wake back up. If doubling and quadrupling our efforts won't do it then we need to increase our efforts tenfold.
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Old March 22, 2019, 09:29 AM   #157
PhotonGuy
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what did he say that is inaccurate?

this is very similar to the old movie where the guy yells that he's mad as hell and that he is not going to take it any more.... and yet, millions have sat back down on their couches and turned on the t.v. without a second thought...
There have been some more restrictive gun laws that have been passed at a state level but only at certain states and in other states restrictive gun laws have been overturned. Yes there are lots of gun owners and people who are for gun rights who aren't doing much right now and they need a wakeup call. But if you want an example of somebody who is doing much for gun rights check out Kaitlin Bennett who gained fame when she posed with a rifle on the college campus she recently graduated from. She is doing much to turn the tide and get others to fight for gun rights, and there are others like her.
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Old March 22, 2019, 09:31 AM   #158
PhotonGuy
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Therefore I'm not buying the suggestion that the 2nd is done in 10-20 years, or that we have lost.
The 2nd will stand as long as the USA stands.
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Old March 22, 2019, 09:34 AM   #159
PhotonGuy
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Half a century ago we did not have a generation raised on entitlement instilled with the a firm belief they are best who can do anything while being responsible for nothing. We allowed an education system to indoctrinate them that all our foundations of individual liberty and responsibility are wrong. They believe they can succeed and will not make the mistakes of history.

We never taught them life is about failure and success comes when you pick yourself from failure

50 years ago we had still had a majority raised on humility, responsibility, and earning their way. Back then people did not think it was normal much less being "better educated" to pay almost half their income in taxes, 16 bucks to cross a bridge, and watch the garbage/feces pile up on the sidewalk. What is so laughable is they want to solve your problems too.
Half a century ago would've been 1969 at the time of this posting, that was during the Vietnam era and there were some big movements such as the hippie movement going on. Are you saying people were brought up very differently back in 1969?

If you ask me the problem is mental health, whenever there's a mass shooting the vast majority of the time the shooter has a mental health problem.
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Old March 22, 2019, 10:31 AM   #160
davidsog
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Half a century ago would've been 1969 at the time of this posting, that was during the Vietnam era and there were some big movements such as the hippie movement going on. Are you saying people were brought up very differently back in 1969?
Yes. I was brought up in that time frame. They "hippie" movement is way overrated and hardly reflected the majority viewpoint although their was some intersection on a some points. It has been romanticized by the Universities professors attempting to relive their childhood while indoctrinating our latest generation.

The hippie was not the majority of Americans and we were still considered a frontier culture agrarian based society. The majority of Americans came from small towns and farms. They were also much more critical thinking oriented with the ability able to seperate good ideas from the bad in a compromise. It was the solid foundation laid prior to then allowing us to emerge on course for the future.

Back then people did not think it was normal much less being "better educated" to pay almost half their income in taxes, 16 bucks to cross a bridge, and watch the garbage/feces pile up on the sidewalk.



Quote:
If you ask me the problem is mental health, whenever there's a mass shooting the vast majority of the time the shooter has a mental health problem.
Of course it is mental health. It is the polarization, sense of entitlement and lack of character taught to this generation that gives clear path to the unhealthy.

Look at the World War II generation, they suffered in silence, rolled up their sleeves, and tried to make the best for all of us. You think they did not have some mental problems after the depression and then World War II????

Look at the newest generation, they are so obsessed with their own narcissism they die taking pictures of themselves to get the validation of strangers on instagram. Meanwhile, Hollywood cranks out another "Hero Solves his problems with a gun movie" that you can watch after shooting all the people shaped targets on your Xbox.

Oh yeah, that guy that disagrees with you...He is a Nazi...yep....nazi.
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Old March 22, 2019, 10:35 AM   #161
rickyrick
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It’s not really a left verses right thing. Both wings flap for the same bird.
Why does everyone assume that the country can’t change? Contries change, and often in our world. Systems can be adjusted, laws and rules change as many have noted with the relatively new gun freedoms that some are enjoying. This country is heading in a new direction whether you wish to admit it or not. Revolution happens, Revolution is coming in new ways. A lot of those red spots on the map are red by a tiny margin. Lots of gun control happens under the watch of a supposedly gun friendly party.

I firmly believe that the conservative mindset out numbers th others, but the conservatives do not vote in large enough numbers, they are complacent and they don’t pay enough attention to the other side.
Not a political discussion, maybe lol.
Best case scenario things keep going in our favor, things happen slowly in our favor... and the do as many have posted. It would take another 20-50 years for gun restrictions to relax across the nation to the level that constitutional carry is universal. There’s going to still be a lot more mass shootings in that 20-50 years. So what do we do in the mean time? Just tolerate more mass shootings? What number of dead are acceptable to y’all why we wait for the good guy with a gun that isn’t going to be there? In our current state, the good guy with a gun is statistically unlikely. It will take several more years before conditions favor the chances of the good guy with a gun scenario, even if things are progressing in the gun-rights direction. Do we just wait as more people die? You can’t convince me that mass shootings aren’t going to increase in severity and frequency. There’s been so many in the last few years that I cannot even remember all of them. That should make you sad and concerned at least somewhat. But instead we sit back and say “molon labe” “come and take it” “thoughts and prayers” “good guy with a gun” “not much we can do”.

We can secure a campus, but we simply choose not to invest in real strategies.
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Old March 22, 2019, 10:49 AM   #162
Mainah
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I listened to this on a flight yesterday: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/670...the-jabberwock

I recommend it. Basically it's the story of the father of a Sandy Hook victim's online fight against Alex Jones and his supporters. The podcast doesn't deal with the gun control aspects of the tragedy. To me it represents the intersection of challenges to (and abuses of) both our 1st and 2nd Amendment rights.

It's good insight into how ugly things can get via social media. And it strikes me as relevant to this discussion because the NZ shooting involved both guns and the internet.
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Old March 22, 2019, 11:02 AM   #163
rickyrick
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Can’t listen right now, but will do so later. Social media is the real driver of the future.
For middle aged people it’s just a place to have conversations and bust each other’s chops.
For younger adults it’s their whole life and everything that happens is set in stone. Whatever political leanings you have, you should join the opposing side’s social media sites... not to argue with them, just so you can be aware of what they have planned.
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Old March 22, 2019, 12:10 PM   #164
Glenn E. Meyer
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This has nothing to do with NZ. I remind posters that pure politics is not allowed. Also, if the thread is about NZ - don't wander into general issues, please.

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