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Old November 30, 2017, 04:57 PM   #1
Bartholomew Roberts
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Two Florida CHLs Halt Spree Shooter

A man opened fire in the parking lot of a Florida automotive store, killing one man and wounding another. The killer had brought a lot of ammo. However, the store manager, a CHL, stepped outside at the first shot and engaged the killer. As the killer chased the manager back into the store, a second employee, also a CHL, shot the killer and halted the attack.

http://www.floridatoday.com/story/ne...man/894502001/

There’s one mass shooting that won’t be national news for weeks.
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Old November 30, 2017, 06:35 PM   #2
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Sounds like one extremely GOOD time to have two good guys on the scene.
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Old November 30, 2017, 06:45 PM   #3
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If justice delayed is justice denied, then instant justice is justice ____________.

Great job Florida CHL'ers!
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Old November 30, 2017, 06:51 PM   #4
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We got something right for once! No hanging chads on this one......
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Old December 1, 2017, 01:03 AM   #5
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... and another story deemed not worth of reporting by Lamestream Media.
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Old December 1, 2017, 05:28 AM   #6
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The thing that concerns me about cc holders intervening in these shootings is what will happen when a cop confuses one for a bad guy and ends up killing him/her. I can just picture the field day that news media would have with it. Still, I'm glad that this creep was stopped.
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Old December 1, 2017, 08:34 AM   #7
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The thing that concerns me about cc holders intervening in these shootings is what will happen when a cop confuses one for a bad guy and ends up killing him/her.
Or another good guy with a CHL. You could have two good guys engaging each other while the real bad guy goes on killing people. Even cops have fired each other in the confusion of such incidents.

I'm not saying that to dissuade anyone from trying to stop a killer, but I wonder what kind of tactics could be used to prevent something like that.
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Old December 1, 2017, 10:13 AM   #8
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DMK, I really don't know. But I definitely think it's a much greater possibility than it ever has been. Things have gotten to the point that it makes more sense than ever to carry a firearm, but we haven't really addressed how to prevent the wrong person or persons from being shot when such chaos ensues. It's almost unbelievable that we even have to think about such scenarios in the first place. There's no such thing as a safe place any more.
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Old December 1, 2017, 10:28 AM   #9
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Thinking through these scenarios in your head before they happen is a good first step! I suspect that usually it is a very sticky situation and lots of confusion. One thing is for sure, if I hear sirens and I am not actively engaged, I am holstering and putting my hands up!
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Old December 1, 2017, 11:25 PM   #10
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What I have heard, and consider good advice is if you are in contact with 911, be certain to REPEATEDLY tell them there are armed citizens on the scene. Also as soon as possible, (meaning when the shooting stops, and police arrive) placing your gun on the ground (NOT reholstering it) and sitting down well out of reach of the gun, then following every police instruction without argument.

If you aren't armed and moving, your odds of being mistaken for the active shooter are less, I would think.
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Old December 2, 2017, 09:22 AM   #11
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Good on the CCWs for protecting themselves and each other.

Quote:
... and another story deemed not worth of reporting by Lamestream Media.
And why would they? It was just a local shootout between a gunman and employees. Only two employees hit, only 1 killed, and the gunman injured/stopped. So what is national newsworthy about the event? It never got to the level of being a mass shooting, so it isn't even a mass shooting. It might have become one and then might have made national news for a bit, or might have even been largely left alone like the two Houston mass shootings last year that came and went very quickly in the national media. It wasn't a spree shooting as it only happened at one place at one time. So, it was just a small, local shootout. The main stream media does not spend a lot of time on events that didn't happen. The don't spend much time how the guys at a refinery stopped a small fire, potentially saving dozens or hundreds of lives, but instead noted the financial loss of the refinery being shut down while repairs are made.

From the accounts so far, the Robert Lorenzo Bailey, Jr. was a looney. This certainly had the makings of a possible mass shooting. The shooter had been fired from his part time job as a bouncer, apparently becoming paranoid according to his former boss who suggested he get help.

Of course, it didn't happen (again) in a gun free zone, either.

Quote:
The thing that concerns me about cc holders intervening in these shootings is what will happen when a cop confuses one for a bad guy and ends up killing him/her.
One problem at a time. Don't go all Brendan (Dan) McKown on us, getting paralyzed with indecision about using your gun and then getting paralyzed by the bad guy. You deal with the problems that pose the greatest threat first.

Keep in mind that these guys were not just "intervening." They were fighting back. They weren't two dudes from some business down the street that responded, but people from the auto shop that was being attacked.

So often, cops are nowhere near these shootings and fail to be on scene for minutes, sometimes 10s of minutes. Occasionally one is around, but not often.
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Old December 2, 2017, 07:49 PM   #12
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The thing that concerns me about cc holders intervening in these shootings is what will happen when a cop confuses one for a bad guy and ends up killing him/her.
So the CC holders are to just sit back and watch the bad guy continue the killing spree?

I'm not trying to be a smart alick, really I'm not, but what would be an acceptable alternative? Personally, I would hate to be put in that position, but I'm pretty sure I'd do exactly what the CC holders did in this case, especially if any of my family members were in the area.
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Old December 2, 2017, 07:53 PM   #13
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So often, cops are nowhere near these shootings and fail to be on scene for minutes, sometimes 10s of minutes. Occasionally one is around, but not often
BINGO!
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Old December 2, 2017, 08:13 PM   #14
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The point is that the police are nowhere to be found when crimes happen. They do great clip work and occasionally they might actually be around to MAYBE get involved. Supreme Court has already started that police officers are not obligated to stop ANY crime in process.
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Old December 3, 2017, 03:32 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonOfScubaDiver
The thing that concerns me about cc holders intervening in these shootings is what will happen when a cop confuses one for a bad guy and ends up killing him/her. I can just picture the field day that news media would have with it. Still, I'm glad that this creep was stopped.
I'm sorry, but this comment makes no sense to me. Do you simply do nothing while people are getting shot (and wait your turn) or do you act and save your own life, and hopefully others? An active shooter and a concealed permit holder should act in very different ways. The active shooter is seeking out targets and engaging anyone. The concealed permit holder will not be shooting at people indiscriminately. As someone else has already mentioned, "when seconds count, the police are only minutes away
".
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Old December 3, 2017, 10:13 AM   #16
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An active shooter and a concealed permit holder should act in very different ways. The active shooter is seeking out targets and engaging anyone. The concealed permit holder will not be shooting at people indiscriminately.
To add my own opinions to the above..... If law enforcement does make it to the scene while the shooter is still active, and can't tell the difference between the bad guy and the good guy, said law enforcement best be finding a new line of work. But, with that said, I guess there are cops out there that grab their AR and start blasting away at anyone with a gun, and anyone acting suspicious. But then I say again, they best be finding a new line of work.
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Old December 3, 2017, 01:02 PM   #17
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another story of a good guy with a gun that will never make the evening news or news paper
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Old December 3, 2017, 03:35 PM   #18
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Lamestream Media
LOL!!! Right on
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Old December 3, 2017, 03:41 PM   #19
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Supreme Court has already started that police officers are not obligated to stop ANY crime in process.
Not so.

What the court has held is that the community cannot be held liable for damages to citizens.

A reasonable ruling, I think, because the police cannot realistically be expected to provide protection for each individual citizen.
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Old December 3, 2017, 04:46 PM   #20
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The manager, who was a concealed weapons permit holder, came out and engaged in gunfire in the parking lot," La Sata said. "The manager fled back inside the building, being chased by the gunman. Another Schlenker employee, who also had concealed weapons permit, engaged in gunfire with the suspect. ibid
That both employees had licenses to carry a concealed weapon is legally irrelevant, of course.

Per Florida law both could have lawfully done what they did absent a concealed weapon license.

I’ll concede that I belong to an unpopular minority on this forum concerning this issue, but my position is nonetheless correct:

Citizens have the right to carry concealed firearms pursuant to lawful self-defense – not to act in the capacity of ‘law enforcement’ or to otherwise ‘deter’ crime.

Citizens have the right to exercise their fundamental rights – such as the rights enshrined in the Second Amendment – without having to ‘justify’ the exercising of those rights as a ‘prerequisite’ to indeed do so.

The ‘good guy with a gun’ meme is therefore an unnecessary, unwarranted attempt to ‘justify’ carrying a concealed firearm.

Those of us who lawfully carry concealed firearms are not required to ‘prove’ or ‘demonstrate’ to anyone that what we do is appropriate with inane rhetoric about ‘good guys with guns.’

I fully support the employees’ actions, and I am thankful there were no additional injuries or deaths, just as I would fully support the decision of an armed citizen to find his way to a safe location, if possible, to contact law enforcement, if the armed citizen did not believe he was in imminent danger of injury or death.
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Old December 3, 2017, 05:22 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
And why would they? It was just a local shootout between a gunman and employees. Only two employees hit, only 1 killed, and the gunman injured/stopped. So what is national newsworthy about the event? It never got to the level of being a mass shooting, so it isn't even a mass shooting.
because the media purposely doesn't cover these events in detail, like they do mass shootings. Yet, in reality, these events greatly outnumber mass shootings annually.
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Old December 3, 2017, 05:32 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by SonOfScubaDiver

The thing that concerns me about cc holders intervening in these shootings is what will happen when a cop confuses one for a bad guy and ends up killing him/her. I can just picture the field day that news media would have with it. Still, I'm glad that this creep was stopped.
I honestly doubt this would happen much to be a problem. Cops arrive to active shooting scenes with a lot of fanfair, the armed citizen would be a fool to continue to engage the suspect once he heard sirens blazing. I realize there's a grey area in there between hearing the sirens and physically seeing the cops in action but I think most naturally anyone would be re-holstering as soon as they could. Now two armed citizens confusing each other I think would also be [statistically] rare but possible and would certainly be more complicated, I think communication is the key and ultimately the real threat is the active shooter so hopefully the two good guys focus would be on that.
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Old December 3, 2017, 10:15 PM   #23
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Citizens have the right to carry concealed firearms pursuant to lawful self-defense – not to act in the capacity of ‘law enforcement’ or to otherwise ‘deter’ crime.
A lot depends on how you define "law enforcement" and "deter crime"

Many, if not most states allow the justified use of deadly force by private citizens to stop certain crimes against themselves and others.

The specific situation matters.
Generally speaking,

You can't (legally) shoot the guy walking off with your TV. (preventing a theft)

You can shoot the guy who enters the coffee shop with a hatchet and tries to disembowel the clerk. (preventing a murder)

Generally speaking. Local laws vary WIDELY and I highly recommend you become thoroughly familiar with them before going armed.

Armed citizens are not required to act as police officers, but there are situations where they may legally do so.
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Old December 3, 2017, 10:27 PM   #24
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Have fun entertaining yourself with the anti media whine. The incident amounted to little and nobody cares. That's the reason it got little coverage. They're in the business of making money and covering news that nobody cares about doesn't go over well.
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Old December 4, 2017, 08:57 AM   #25
SonOfScubaDiver
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I'm sorry, but this comment makes no sense to me. Do you simply do nothing while people are getting shot (and wait your turn) or do you act and save your own life, and hopefully others? An active shooter and a concealed permit holder should act in very different ways. The active shooter is seeking out targets and engaging anyone. The concealed permit holder will not be shooting at people indiscriminately. As someone else has already mentioned, "when seconds count, the police are only minutes away
".

The reason it doesn't make any sense to you is because you think I'm suggesting that CC holders shouldn't intervene, when my point was more about the police knowing the difference between good guys with guns and bad guys with guns. Along with the increase we're seeing in mass shootings is an increase in armed citizens fighting back, which isn't a bad thing. You'd think an armed citizens would know to stand down when police show up, but what if they show up while a citizen is in the process of shooting back at the bad guy and they confuse the good guy for the bad guy? All it would take is one instance of such a mistake, and I can just about guarantee you that it would not only be all over the news, but it would be used as justification to restrict cc.
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