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Old December 10, 2017, 01:45 PM   #1
nanney1
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How do small gun shops survive?

I'm obviously missing something, because I don't see how small local gun stores exist. Their pricing can be beaten by looking around online.

The local store that I like the best has about 10-15 long guns on the wall, 2 display cases housing maybe 12 handguns, and a third case with a small selection of ammo. They also have a small assortment of accessories, but can order most anything. Of the 12 or so handguns, 4 or 5 are on consignment. Most of their inventory is online and their online broker isn't that competitive.

So what do they offer: concealed carry classes, transfers, and private instruction. They do a lot of transfers because their cost is the lowest around and they have high turnout in the CC classes because they are the cheapest. I'm guessing their classes lead to some gun sales, but I really can't see how they're making it since they have the overhead of a storefront business.
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Old December 10, 2017, 01:52 PM   #2
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Providing actual knowledge, personal service, competent gunsmith services when we require them. Trusted FFL transactions. Having folks round like myself that do not base every purchase value on price alone.
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Old December 10, 2017, 03:31 PM   #3
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Their pricing can be beaten by looking around online.
Sometimes people buy from an LGS specifically to support it. How are you going to take delivery of that gun from online without a gun shop in the area? Try getting a big retail chain gun store to accept delivery of that gun you want to order online. Having an FFL in the neighborhood can be pretty valuable.

People are often willing to pay more than the rock-bottom price for additional service or for additional peace of mind. When I find an LGS with employees I like and where I'm treated well, I'm likely to buy from them even if it costs me a little more money. I also like knowing that if I have a return, I can expect some assistance with it.

Many buyers have no idea that they can buy a gun online or even that they can find better prices if they just shop around a little. Also, not all buyers are comfortable buying online although I have to believe that's getting less and less common these days.

Some people will not buy a gun unless they can handle it first. I tend to fall into this category. These days I won't even special order a firearm through a gun shop because I don't want to feel like I'm under any obligation to take delivery if I don't like something about the gun after I get it in my hands. Also, if you want to do a trade deal, it tends to be much easier to handle this in person.

Convenience is a big reason. My LGS is just down the street and also has an indoor range. If I'm in there to shoot, or to browse and see they have something I want, I might be willing to buy it on the spot rather than trying to find a cheaper online seller and setting up the transfer with a local FFL.

Another issue is that I won't have an LGS do a transfer for me if it's a gun that they stock. I would either look around for another LGS that didn't stock that gun or buy the gun from the LGS rather than ask them to do a transfer for something that they could just sell me off the shelf.
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Old December 10, 2017, 04:05 PM   #4
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How do mom and pop gun shops make a profit.

Buy and sell used guns, has the most profit.

Some will need minor repair or wood repair/refinishing. Have bought guns with the parts in a bag.

Death in family, wife just wants to get rid of guns.

Selling because of divorce. Sell low so wife gets less money. Never made sense to me.

Trade-ins dont receive top dollar, even at the big stores.

People walk in with a gun. "I want to sell this" Ask them what they want for it. Some want very little or what they paid for it 20 years ago.

The owner may have other income, semi- retired to pay the rent. Or the other buisnesses pay for the hobby gunshop.
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Old December 10, 2017, 04:05 PM   #5
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Most small gun shops stay afloat with accessory sales, and buying and selling used guns.

All of the previously mentioned factors come into play.

In addition, they often have other side business, or non-gun facets to the business:

My preferred gun shop used to be a pawn shop and the current owner was a partner in that prior business; so he's also willing to deal in fishing gear, knives, and certain outdoor equipment. Those categories are a very small part of the business, but have a very high profit margin.

A few years ago, he saw the writing on the wall and recognized that if Hillary was elected, gun sales would be through the roof; but if she wasn't elected, the market would tank. So, he partnered with a gunsmith that was being pushed out of his shop (the property owner sold to a developer), and they came together to offer general gunsmithing services, as well as advertising same-day gunsmithing services.
Advertising the same-day gunsmithing brought a lot of new faces into the store, and was a big factor in staying alive over the last year.


Down the street from my preferred LGS, there's a "gun shop" that has two additional floors of product, that most customers don't realize are there if they just came for the guns. That shop specializes in 'western wear', local Native American art, and farm implement antiques.
The top floors are where the profit is. The gun floor just keeps the employees busy and adds a little bit of cash flow.

About 90 miles from here, there used to be my favorite gun store - for uniqueness and surprise.
It was a converted convenience store - on a corner of the highest-traffic intersection in town - and still had working fuel pumps. There was one small drink cooler, and one small rack with a few candy bars. Everything else was rifle racks, ammo, handgun display cases, reloading gear, hunting gear, shooting gear, and a wall of tobacco.
But, from the outside, it just looked like a large gas station.
It confused the hell out of people from out of town - especially the Californians gassing up on their way to Yellowstone NP.
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Old December 10, 2017, 04:31 PM   #6
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It could be a "Front", but I doubt it.

It could be someone's retirement dream. They just want to cover cost and enjoy what they always wanted to do.

I have seen business start off small until they could build a customer base and gradually increase in size as they are able to find trusted employees.
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Old December 10, 2017, 04:40 PM   #7
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I'm sure FFL transfer fees have a lot to do with it. $20-30 for a transfer that takes about 15 minutes of work in total (from the 4473 to accepting the package) equals out to a $80/hr worth. Dozens of transfers a month adds up fast on top of used gun sales where the FFL generally makes 100 bucks at a minimum on and occasional ammo or reloading sales and they find a way.

My closest FFL also makes re manufactured ammunition in the basement as another income stream. Then the next closest FFL to me has really been building up a Cerakote or Duracoat shop and I've been thinking of having some of my guns coated in a nice FDE or other colors. It's nice that they do it and it's local.
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Old December 10, 2017, 05:37 PM   #8
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Buying from the LGS saves me an hour of time over the big retailers (whose gun purchase process is deplorable).

When buying from the LGS, I can see the gun I'm buying prior to purchase or making an offer.

Buying from the LGS saves me hazmat fees on small quantities of powder or primers.

Buying from the LGS means I can enjoy it today.
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Old December 10, 2017, 07:58 PM   #9
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A lot of the guns sold online are, "lnib," and represented as, "nib." I see a lot of guns on gunbroker, gunsamerica that look like they have been handled by a 1000 gun show attendees, but never fired. Rack the slide a thousand times, dry fire the thing a thousand times, its a, "lnib never fired." as far as I'm concerned

Now, add shipping, and ffl transfer.

I find better deals at my local LGS.
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Old December 10, 2017, 09:13 PM   #10
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On the flip side...

A couple years ago, I spent a few weeks scouring the region for a Ruger Super Redhawk or Super Blackhawk in .480 Ruger. At the time, I was leaning toward the Redhawk and would have taken almost any barrel length except for the Alaskan "snubby". But I couldn't come up with ANYTHING.
I had to turn to the internet. It was so difficult to locate enough revolvers in the hands of dealers that I felt I could trust, to even get a good idea on price, that I actually ended up looking up regional phone books and calling hundreds of gun shops, sporting goods stores, and pawn shops all over the country.

I found about a three dozen .480s total, and about a dozen potential candidates with photos, but most were eliminated for various reasons -- up to and including $130+ for shipping.
Finally, I found the best price on what seemed like a good revolver (first run SRH 7.5").

It arrived at the LGS, and the owner asked, "Why didn't you buy the one right there? It would have been cheaper." I turned around to see a 9.5" SRH .480 Ruger sitting in the revolver case across the store.
I had to remind him, "Because you didn't have one when I was looking, and you told me you didn't want to find one."

It would have been cheaper. But I can't buy what's not available.
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Old December 11, 2017, 09:29 AM   #11
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Quote:
I'm obviously missing something, because I don't see how small local gun stores exist.


Low Overhead, good business sense and tax incentives. Many don't have to make a lot of money, just have to break even after the owner makes a profit. One of our local gun/sports stores is owned by a Co-Worker of mine and her husband. She has been working for 35 years in a government job with great Health Insurance and benefits. Her husband is retired Military. She tells me that FFL transfers from internet bought firearms are one of their biggest profit makers. Their storefront is attached to their home and have no other fulltime employees other than themselves. They deduct part of their home and it's expenses on taxes and many times make more money in the end when they show a loss for the year than when they show a profit. While they cannot compete with the local Walmart on many things, they handle things the local Wal-Mart doesn't, like live bait and firearm/fishing reel repair. They hold local hunting/fishing contests to get folks in the door and she tells me on Saturdays during fishing season, they make more on Candy Bars and energy drinks than anything. Easy access and quick in and out makes customers stop there instead of the Wallyworld.
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Old December 11, 2017, 12:10 PM   #12
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Big retailers in my area seem to be trying to discourage online sales by charging very high transfer/background check fees if you want to transfer an online purchase through them. Some small shops have reasonable transfer fees, and that brings in other business.

Last edited by cjwils; December 11, 2017 at 09:42 PM.
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Old December 11, 2017, 12:57 PM   #13
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I would hazard my own guess that a solid chunk of those buying/selling guns are not even on the internet.

I am currently without a gunshop I can call 'home'. The friends I have who were working for local gunshops have all moved on to different things. Probably for the best, as I do not have the disposable income to be buying anthing right now.
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Old December 11, 2017, 03:08 PM   #14
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^Love that name SpacemanSpiff

I'd rather pay a little more to keep a local gun store open.
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Old December 11, 2017, 05:46 PM   #15
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Agreed,Trace!

The small local gun store IS an endangered species.Big box and online stores are tough competition.

The bigbox,etc ,is not going to have that little part you need on a Friday,or that bit of gunsmith help you need.

I can't afford to give the small shop a major subsidy, but 10% or 15 % on my shotgun shells or 22's or powder...I can live with.

If I'm going to buy a scope or a gun or a reloading press,I go to my LGS and I'm straight with him. "You are my first choice,you get first chance"
SOMETIMES,my LGS beats everyone,but I don't expect it. If its $300 at box store or online,and my LGS is $340....I buy at my LGS.If the fact is,he has to charge $340 and I can buy for $269...That's different,BUT,my LGS knows I gave him a chance.

It comes back around. And I'm glad the Old Goober is there.
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Old December 11, 2017, 10:01 PM   #16
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Quote:
buck460XVR Quote:
.... Many don't have to make a lot of money, just have to break even after the owner makes a profit.
Huh?
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Old December 12, 2017, 03:16 AM   #17
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I work for a LGS and we have over 400 guns for sale. New and used. What sets us apart is our knowledge/ expertise and customer service. We're all huge hunters and shooters, some of us are prior military and law enforcement as well. We know most people by name and we use their names the minute they walk in the door.

New/used guns come in everyday. Our new gun prices are around $100 less than big box stores as well. We also offer transfers. We see little to no profit from them but what we experience is people keep coming back for our customer service. Someone will notice our prices and check with us before they order something online again or they will continue to have stuff shipped back to us because they like us.

You will always see the same 4-5 people working there and we're always laughing and joking around. People love that. Two of the other guys are gunsmiths and we can usually repair or diagnose a problem while the customer waits. If we can't it will be done ASAP with the parts we order and the rates are pretty low compared to what I've seen with other gunsmiths.

I used to work for a big box store that only sold new. While their prices were good there wasn't a whole lot of odd ball stuff that some people like. There's also no negotiation on prices where as a LGS like us, we have the ability to have all kinds of interesting things as well as the ability to negotiate prices. If we can give someone a deal we do and we enjoy doing it. Another thing is we can usually special order any gun a customer may want and have it in store within 2-3 days.

Some big box stores make you take a number and you have to wait until your number is called, then you have to go wait in another line to fill out the 4473 or do it online. We Bounce around from customer to customer making sure they are finding everything ok or to see if they have questions. I visited a LGS in Denver last weekend and was highly disappointed with their customer service.

No one asked me if I wanted to see anything or if I needed help. They had alot of consignment guns as well as alot of used ones. I did find an HK USP 40S&W magazine in a $15 cash only bin. It was a hell of a deal so I bought it. I only had $12 cash on me at the time and I asked someome if they would take the $12 cash or take $15+tax with a card and the guy was rude and short with me and was told no. It wasnt packed so they weren't busy. I asked if there was an ATM around and was told there was one at the bar next door. Mind you its 11am on a Saturday...the bar wasnt open, so I had to leave and go find a different ATM. I came back and bought the magazine and the guy who helped me was a different guy and the others were just standing around. I tried to talk to the guy and tell him it was a deal I couldn't pass up and that I own 3 HK pistols and he just said yeah and haded me my change like he didn't even want to be there. I wont be going back.

Word of mouth gets around pretty quick and we always have people coming back or people who tell us their friend or a family member told them about us. To me it all boils down to customer service and satisfaction. If the customers are happy and enjoy being in your store, they will come back and tell others.
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Old December 12, 2017, 09:17 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by dogtown tom View Post
Huh?
As an owner of a small business, you know that while you can make a good living off it, the business itself does not have to make money. A good accountant, even when showing a profit, will try to keep it to a minimum. A small mom and pop business doe not have to pay out to shareholders like big box corporations and pay the salaries of corporate staff. Many have a small staff if any so payroll is small or non-existent. This is what I see from around here much of the time. Owner is retired or semi-retired. The spouse may be also or the spouse may work somewhere else. In the case of the store in my first post, the wife made enough money and bennies for both of them to live on anyway. The business was a great tax break for them and more of a hobby than a huge money maker. Even in instances where the business is the main money maker, it still takes the good business sense and the tax incentives that small businesses are entitled too, that I also mentioned in my first post. Seen it several times where a small Mom and Pop business sells out or is passed down to a kid, and within a year or two closes. Customer base and location is the same, only thing that changed was the way the business was run.
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Old December 12, 2017, 11:16 AM   #19
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You can’t buy a gun online without a local shop to do the transfer. The online buying model is self-limiting to a degree.
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Old December 12, 2017, 02:11 PM   #20
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Small gun shops have a tough time generally nowdays. The gun market is way down since Trump got in and this added to the internet competition makes for a whole different market than what it was just a few years back.
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Old December 12, 2017, 02:19 PM   #21
TruthTellers
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Originally Posted by FrankenMauser View Post
On the flip side...

A couple years ago, I spent a few weeks scouring the region for a Ruger Super Redhawk or Super Blackhawk in .480 Ruger. At the time, I was leaning toward the Redhawk and would have taken almost any barrel length except for the Alaskan "snubby". But I couldn't come up with ANYTHING.
I had to turn to the internet. It was so difficult to locate enough revolvers in the hands of dealers that I felt I could trust, to even get a good idea on price, that I actually ended up looking up regional phone books and calling hundreds of gun shops, sporting goods stores, and pawn shops all over the country.

I found about a three dozen .480s total, and about a dozen potential candidates with photos, but most were eliminated for various reasons -- up to and including $130+ for shipping.
Finally, I found the best price on what seemed like a good revolver (first run SRH 7.5").

It arrived at the LGS, and the owner asked, "Why didn't you buy the one right there? It would have been cheaper." I turned around to see a 9.5" SRH .480 Ruger sitting in the revolver case across the store.
I had to remind him, "Because you didn't have one when I was looking, and you told me you didn't want to find one."

It would have been cheaper. But I can't buy what's not available.
This is the problem I've run into with every store for a decade now. I remember when I was 17 I really wanted to buy Grand Theft Auto IV for my Xbox and so I went with a friend into town to get it and I remember telling him, "They'll have the game... for Playstation."

Sure enough, they have it for Playstation and not Xbox. Couldn't buy it.

Fast forward a decade (oh God, I can't believe it's been 10 years) I hit the same snag with gun stores, even gun shows. I go to a gun show in New Hampshire and look for the North American Arms black powder revolvers... nobody has them. I go to a gun show in Indiana, nobody had any Kel Tec's.

Even when my lgs have something I want, it's not exactly what I want. Sorry, I don't want a Glock with the MOS mount that I'm never going to use. Sorry, I don't want to spend more than double on a used Ruger SP101 over a used Charter Arms .357.

Nobody around me sells .327's, nobody seems to have any antique rifles from the 19th Century, nobody carries any single shot muzzleloading pistols.

Even if they did, I have to wait 8 days to take possession of it and if it's something that costs over $500, it's cheaper for me to buy online and avoid sales tax.

$130 for shipping is ridiculous.
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Old December 12, 2017, 02:41 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Coloradohtr View Post
I visited a LGS in Denver last weekend and was highly disappointed with their customer service.

No one asked me if I wanted to see anything or if I needed help. They had alot of consignment guns as well as alot of used ones. I did find an HK USP 40S&W magazine in a $15 cash only bin. It was a hell of a deal so I bought it. I only had $12 cash on me at the time and I asked someome if they would take the $12 cash or take $15+tax with a card and the guy was rude and short with me and was told no. It wasnt packed so they weren't busy. I asked if there was an ATM around and was told there was one at the bar next door. Mind you its 11am on a Saturday...the bar wasnt open, so I had to leave and go find a different ATM. I came back and bought the magazine and the guy who helped me was a different guy and the others were just standing around. I tried to talk to the guy and tell him it was a deal I couldn't pass up and that I own 3 HK pistols and he just said yeah and haded me my change like he didn't even want to be there. I wont be going back.

Word of mouth gets around pretty quick and we always have people coming back or people who tell us their friend or a family member told them about us. To me it all boils down to customer service and satisfaction. If the customers are happy and enjoy being in your store, they will come back and tell others.
Yeah, it sure does. There's one LGS that I use to like because it was out in the country, the store had hard wood floors, a gunsmith section in the back... it felt like a store from the 1800's. The issue is the employees don't want you there or your money and most of the guns are used made in the early to mid 1900's.

The owner wanted my money because I went there when they were closed one day to buy powder and he let me in and did the sale without any tax added. He's not there everyday, so it makes it tough to want to go back.

The other lgs I've done the most business with this year was going great, they have one employee who's given me free ammo and a free transfer after some complications recently with lost 4473 paperwork. He makes everything run smooth, but he's not the owner. The new owner has expanded the business and they do duracoating/cerakoting in the back now, but... the customer service has dropped. Wait times are hitting 30 minutes just to get a 4473 done, lines are getting longer, and it's all because the owner is the only guy working during the week. He doens't want to schedule more than one person for the counter.

It makes for a piss poor experience because the one guy behind the counter is answering the phone, doing calls to the NICS, signing for packages, taking payments, etc.

It's hit the point that I just can't deal with it anymore. If I want to wait 30 mins, I'll go to Cabela's. Better yet, I'll go to the next closest LGS. Yes, it'll cost me $15-30 more for a transfer, but at least I can get in and out faster and in the mean time, look at some of the "new" used guns that have come in.

For me, when it comes to a gun store, I'll like you if you talk to me like I'm a person. If we can converse about guns, gun laws, or how it's nice that we live in a more tolerant society that gay men don't have to hide their sexuality and marry women and have kids only to come out as gay when the kids are in high school. Yes, that was an actual conversation I had with an employee at a gun store.

But the big one for me is I don't want to be waiting in line. I wait in line at enough places, the gun store shouldn't be one of them.
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Old December 12, 2017, 07:43 PM   #23
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Your looking in the wrong local store. My local guy most times can beat "cheaper than dirt" on prices.

He goes to area gun shows and sells. It's not just "in store" sales.
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Old December 12, 2017, 07:47 PM   #24
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Most of us here are probably savvy online buyers. Surprisingly a lot of people are not sure or don't want to try to buy online. You know, the fear of the unknown.
I see people in my LGS come in and really aren't sure what they want. They need to see it, hold it, and have the shop explain differences between platforms.
They will pay xtra for that service. I venture to guess, we are not the average gun buyer. A lot of us spend tons of time researching and have much more experience with firearms.
Even some of the guys I shoot with, won't buy a gun online. Lets face it, we aren't their targeted consumer.
All that said, I've bought some new and some used guns from my local gun shop. I also buy my cast bullets and some other stuff from them. I want them to succeed!!!
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Old December 12, 2017, 07:49 PM   #25
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I live in a very rural community and there isn't a LGS within an hour of where I live... and it stinks.

Fortunately there are a few guys with their FFL that can do transfers, but I wish there was a storefront with knowledgeable staff I could talk to about gun stuff. Have thought about starting my own... but, like the OP stated, "how can they survive?"
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