Home Defense, what do you think? (deceiving title)

[GUNSMOKE45441]

You calif. folks may own only the weaponry your legislature deems legal at this time, good luck in the future.

[reildeal]

With regards to your post Gunsmoke, you are right. I do have the right to bear the weaponry that my legislature deems legal. I do also have to right per California Law to defend myself and my family with lethal force against pending threat to my life and my loved ones lives. I do also have the right per the 2nd Ammendment of the Constitution of the United States to ensure that that right is NOT infringed upon by whatever means that present themselves shall it become a necessity to do so. So let me run through this one more time just to make it clear:

I can bear arms
I can defend myself
My country nor my state shall take that away from me, and should they decide to, I will defend that.

So what am I missing? The right to own weapons grade plutonium? an M1 Abrams? A fully Automatic Assault Rifle?

[mathman]

How come so many people from CA are moving to AZ????? They ran all the prices up there and instead of moving to NYC where they belong, they have to go to AZ and artificially inflate the price of everything there!!!! "Dynamic Economy" indeed!!

Many people choose to leave because of the influx of people that come from other parts of the country...I mean really, where in the hell do you think all of these people come from...surely you don't think that it is all illegal immigration. There must be something in California that people like...cuz a lot of folks from back east move here every year.

[JohnKSa]

I have a fire extinguisher, do I carry it around everywhere I go? Looking for potential fires? Scanning the house all the time? Until you lock yourself in your house afraid to come out or the fire will get you?

Obviously, any analogy will break down at some point. Carrying a fire extinguisher around everywhere is a bit more extreme than having a small concealable firearm handy. I carry anytime it's legal, but only my wife knows, and I've carried so much that I rarely think about the gun I'm wearing.

"Looking for potential fires" is a bit extreme, but keeping aware of your surroundings is certainly commendable. One need not sit with one's back to the wall, always facing the door, one need not continually scan the area, but that doesn't mean being oblivious is the only alternative. I certainly am not always looking for a potential attacker, but I do try to stay aware of what's going on around me.

The "lock yourself in the house" comment is purely baiting and sarcasm on your part and doesn't really fit with anything from this thread or any other I've seen on TFL. I've never seen anyone advocate never leaving the house.

But I think that comment is you getting a bit more straightforward about what you really mean, and it's really right along the lines of what I said earlier about some folks refusing to lock their houses because it's an admission of vulnerability.

Clearly, you aren't just saying that you feel safe and you don't feel the need to be more prepared. The last sarcastic comment about locking oneself in the house and never coming out, makes it clear that you are really trying to justify your lack of preparedness by trying to make those who are more prepared than you are seem ridiculous.

[abelew]

Anyone who won't come out of their home because they feel like someone is out to "get them" is usually not in the right frame of mind. With that said, keeping an open mind and having a plan of action is not being in the wrong frame of mind. I think keeping a weapon for home defense is a good idea, but thats just my take on the situation. Other's may feel differently. I just dont like the other option. Will I ever need it, probably not, hopefully not. But if I do need it, will I want to have it? You bet your life I will. I won't live in Kommifornia or NYC, or any of those places, not because I can't keep a gun for defense, that's not what it's about. It's about my take on personal liberties, and I think those states have gone wayyyyy too far. Not living in those states is about my only way of boycotting like action in other parts of the country. The only other recourse I have is to state my opinion on the matter.

[relientk1988]

After reading some more replies I have some more comments. Hopefully this will clear up the misconception that I am anti-american and anti-gun. I totally believe in protecting your home/property but I have read some rather alarming things on the TFL forums. Has anyone else seen the threads where people say things like "I would shoot first and ask questions later"? I don't think for a second this is the prevailing attitude but there are some. People that, unlike you, wouldn't think twice about killing someone for property. I didn't mean to offend you guys who(within reason) defend your homes/persons. I do not think you're crazy, you're comfortable with your level of security as I am with mine. However there are people that become crazy thinking, "what if?" It is those type of people who take it to extremes and become extremely paranoid. What do you think about these people. Now all of you who have mocked me, is this not a valid point? I'm not saying you guys are crazy, please dont think that. I'm asking isn't it possible that you can be consumed?


Ben

P.S. I dont think you guys are wrong you have assessed the threat levels where you live and have adapted to it. So, is it possible to go too far?

[JohnKSa]

I'm asking isn't it possible that you can be consumed?

Yes.

I dont think you guys are wrong you have assessed the threat levels where you live and have adapted to it. So, is it possible to go too far?

Yes, it's possible to go too far. However, assessing the threat level doesn't tell the whole story. Just because crime is lower in one area than another doesn't warrant complete relaxation. The fact is that horrible crimes happen even in low crime areas--just less often. It's no consolation to the victims that they had "properly assessed the threat level" and that they were prepared to the level "warranted" by area crime statistics.

I have a question now...

Can you honestly say that you don't derive some level of comfort from the fact that you aren't prepared to repel violent crime? In other words, don't you, at some level, feel that your lack of preparation is an affirmation of your safety?

If not, then how do you justify not preparing for the possibility that you might be the victim of violent crime? Surely you understand that low crime doesn't mean no crime, and that living in a relatively safe area is doesn't mean that if you are a crime victim, your attacker will somehow be more gentle or understanding.

[relientk1988]

Ok, first off we're not talking about my level of safety whatever else. All I wanted to do from the beginning is find out if anyone thinks there are limits. John, you yourself agree with me,

Yes, it's possible to go too far.

Who's saying I don't prepare against violent crime. I lock the doopr and own a dog. Why keep telling me I'm unprepared? What is the level of preparedness? Obviously there is a written standard somewhere that I haven't seen. If you could share it with me I'd be thrilled. This isn't the point of the entire thread(neither is bashing california). And you agree with me that it is possible to get carried away.


Thanks for all the Love,
Ben

[hso]

Guys, let's remember that Ben is young enough to not know everything (I'm 47 and don't) and obviously smart enough to know that he doesn't know everything (I ain't always as smart as he seems to be). He's asked a question based on what he's seen at TFL and asked it pretty well. Would an outsider think that some folks here are fixated on using firearms for self defense based on what they read? Woud they think that most of us are?

Ben, what you need to remember is that often the people with the most extreme postions are the most likely to post while those with more mainstream (that's mainstream for this group) views are likely to read and stay in the background. Most people here own guns and shoot for fun, but the majority of them consider firearms part of their defensive tool kit. Learning what's involved is part and parcel to that. Read the areas outside of TT and you'll find tons of folks interested in collecting or firearms history or pure performance and all of that without getting into self defense, but you could make a safe bet that many of them read what's at TT also to help the cement their ideas about self defense. Does that mean the some folks get wrapped up in the self defense aspects? Sure, but not everyone.

[zulustyle]

Howdy,
As far as the original question goes I feel that it is definately possible to go overboard with home defense. I totally believe in being prepared and a firearm definately works into that equation.. so do deadbolts,a security system, and 120lbs worth of dog.
I think that if a person feels that the "burbs" are much safer than the city and therefore don't worry about crime as much should consider that the vast majority of home-invasions take place in more affluent neighborhoods than lower class ones. This applies to all states.
1 out of 9 people in the U.S. live in California so it really can't be ALL that bad. I lived there for 3 years after getting out of the service and I really do miss it at times.
Ultimately its a matter of personal preference, having small children in my home defiantely means no firearms in every room of the house, but claymores in the driveway could prove really entertaining for unwanted inlaws and visitors.

[Bullrock]

There must be something in California that people like...cuz a lot of folks from back east move here every year.

This thread is getting a little testy so this is in jest. Well, Kinda!

Mathman,

We do our best in the NorthEast to send you as many liberals as we can get rid of every year. We still have a long, long way to go!

[Para Bellum]

my Country and City seem to be the middle of peace. However my best friend was stabbed in the head by a shizoid-paranoic at work. We are business-partners (attorneys at law) don't do crime nor divorce, just commercial litigation and business law. This freak wanted to be represented by our firm but we turned him down, he was too freaky. So the next day he came with a folding knife. He stabbed my partner in the head again and again until the knive broke. It took my partner two months and seven operations to be back at work again. And he was even lucky.

Our case was not in any news. Freaks are everywhere. The fact that you don't read or hear about aggressive cirme doesn't mean it isn't there. It is. Until the above happened I shot and fought (unarmed defense "sports") mainly for fun. That has changed. I'm serious about it know. I even hadt to sit at my partner's bed in the hospital with my Glock. The bad guy was on the run still, kept threatening via phone, but the police said they had no personel to protect my partner. So we hired bodyguards. Until they arrived, I did the job for about three hours. I never would have dreamed that. But we all were pretty happy that I was prepared, trained and ready to do so.

The bad guy was captured four days later. Facing an trial for attempted murder now.

The craziest thing about all this is that I was 500km away in a court-hearing when the attack happened. Every other business day I would have been in the same room for our morning briefing at the time of the attack. I most likely would have drawn, fired, and stopped that nightmare before it really began. I was at the wrong place. And my partner didn't think about defense until that day. He smiled at me and kept thinking I was a little paranoid and a gun-freak etc. That perception has changed when I watched his back at the hospital.

In my neighborhood (which is not bad at all) two homes were broken into recently. I have to admit that nobody was home at the time.

[relientk1988]

Well, I thank you all for your opinions expressed here. I feel now that I have a better understanding of this topic and hopefully you do too.

Ben

[JohnKSa]

Ben,

You started this thread by saying that "I live in the suburbs and not really afraid of anything. My shotgun is locked up" and pretty much said that you didn't have any loaded firearms readily available for self-defense. Later on in the thread you say: "no one has backed me up yet" which I took to mean that you were still saying that your level of home defense (no loaded firearms) was sufficient.

Maybe I read it wrong, but it seemed that you were, at the least, heavily implying that having loaded firearms handy was approaching the same level as having machine gun nests and claymores while at the same time you were sticking to your level of preparation as perfectly adequate.

No two people are going to agree entirely on what is an adequate level of protection. I know a retired state trooper who makes it a point to always lock his doors, to always own a large, intimidating, trained dog, and to have a loaded gun secreted in every room. That's a bit more than I am willing to do, but I know that he's dealt much more often with the scum of the earth than I have. I don't follow his example in every respect, but I don't think that he's paranoid either.

My parents own self-defense firearms that they keep loaded, but they have them put away so securely that I doubt they could ever make use of them. As I said, I know some people who feel that even locking their doors is somehow an admission of vulnerability. I'm sure they think I'm nuts for locking my doors and keeping a loaded firearm readily available.

I truly hope that these folks never get into a real jam. That they don't ever need a loaded firearm. I hope that I don't get into a situation where I must resort to firearms. But, I have determined that I will make that option available to me so that if I need to, I can make use of it. Not because I think I'm likely to experience violent crime but because I couldn't live with myself if it DID happen and I had the means to stop it but couldn't because I hadn't made "reasonable" preparations.

That's really the key. Some people want reasons NOT to prepare. They can make a list a mile long if you discuss it with them. Low crime area, inconvenient, whatever...

I do my best to prepare to deal with the things I can't tolerate happening. My "reasonable rule" is basically this:

If I really don't want something to happen, and I can take precautions to prevent it then I will as long as those precautions don't require excessive cost or inconvenience.

Carrying a full-sized pistol or revolver all the time fits into the "excessive inconvenience" category for me. I make it a point to always carry a firearm and a spare mag, but I'm not going to carry something that requires me to alter my wardrobe or lifestyle to accomodate.

Fortifying my house comes under the heading of excessive cost. I have a monitored security system and I lock my doors and windows, but my house is not particularly difficult to break into for various reasons. I'm just not to the stage where I'm ready to put up bars or install fortified doors.

So, YES, I agree that one can go too far. It's just that everyone has a different standard of "reasonable."

One must be very careful when feeling around this topic because it's very easy for people to get the idea that you don't feel that they are reasonable because their "standard of reasonable" is different from yours. Especially if there are implications of paranoia or jokes about machine guns on the roof, etc.

But, it's interesting to have these discussions to see what other folks are doing and what they think is "reasonable." That's what these forums are all about, after all.

[Jungle Work]

PB,
As a Chief of Police I had a lot of contact with the Attorneys in my jurisdiction.
Each one of them I knew had a pistol in their desk drawer at their office.
They recognized the fact that some of the folks they delt with were "crazy".
The only one I knew who didn't have a gun in her desk was a female attorney who could out crazy the carzies. Her office was across the street from the PD and every now and then we'd see a crazy running out the front door of her office.

Jungle Work

[Jungle Work]

For those who don't want to have firearms readily accessable in their homes,

I've worked a bunch of murders where folks where victims of home invasion and several tried to fight them off the BGs with Kitchen Knives, but were not as strong as their assailants. I was always amazed to find unloaded guns in the closet or drawers. If you die, I'l feel sorry for you, but never fear, there is somebody in the local Police who will work your murder. If it's just you, no problem. But if you have a family, you're a sorry POS if you do not live up to your responsibility and try to protect and save your wife and children to the best of your ability. JMHO.

Jungle Work

[relientk1988]

Well John I just read your post and I'm actually really happy the way this turned out. Like I said there have been alot of views expressed. Yeah I do take precautions that maybe in my earlier postings they were not evident. I will reiterate, I don't think anyone is crazy for CCW/HD or anything else as long as it doesn't "consume" them. That's all. I like guns alot. I like to shoot. But there have been posts where people have loaded guns on every table. I don't know how comfortable I would be in a house like that. Get up for a drink of water and get blown away ;-). I know that doesn't happen all the time but all it takes is one idiot out there shooting at his friend in the kitchen for all of us, all of us, and Gun control advocates have another statistic.



Ben

[Guy B. Meredith]

California is okay except for that overly populated thin blue line along the coast.

My firearms are for recreation only, however I keep my .357 magnum and about 70 rounds of ammo next to me at night. Why? Because I would feel stupid if something did happen and I hadn't taken advantage of this defensive measure available to me.

I've always lived in the suburbs.

Lessee, in Costa Mesa, CA there was a cops and robber incident where the BG was hiding at the corner of our house and dropped his gun near our front window. We heard about it later.

Same house, our next door neighbor was held up for tax refund by individual carrying a shotgun.

Another house in Costa Mesa a few blocks away, someone came through our house when we were gone and fortunately was satisfied with a pile of quarters.

Same house, police helicopter overhead looking for BG running through and hiding in backyards. First and last time I had the gun out and loaded--12 GA.

Moved to crime free (per community evaluation web site) San Ramon next to crime free Danville, Alamo, Lafayette and Olinda.

Dentist killed in Alamo in shootout with home invaders. His wife and brother beat one down with a frying pan. Coupla women killed in the Lafayette/Orinda area by handymen, etc.

BGs broke into several storage units in our apartment complex.

Moved into senior community of 1960s ranch homes in nice rural corner of San Ramon, felt free of crime, thought previous owner was nuts for all the locks in the place. Did not use about half the locks.

April 2004 our 1993 Mazda was stolen out of our closed garage, apparently with a remote control to open the door. Possibly work of East Palo Alto group. Fortunately they did not venture into our house through the unlocked ajoining door.

Same week a BG started to break back window of neighbor's house, scared off by family party next door to that house.

Last weekend BGs left a stolen car about 100 ft. down the street from us, came down and stole our second car from in front of our house.

The owners in this senior community are frequently doing upgrades and tons of undocumented day workers, contractors and others are here. Sometimes the crowds of outsiders may be cover for other unsavory types. Seniors hire gardeners, handymen and others. Some are long term relationships, others are transient.

We now use most of the locks and a couple more in this low crime rate area. Again, my firearms were selected and purchased soley for recreation, but I would not want to be so stupid as to neglect utilizing the tools at hand for self defense.

[Guy B. Meredith]

In most costal areas of California it is not easy to be permitted armed self defense outside the home. In our area that is not even a consideration so we are not one of the areas where we are constantly on armed alert, nor do we have the first hand observations to contribute to the rest on THR.


FrankDrebin,

Mathman has it right. I am a native Californian raised for 8 years in Bellflower in LA county and then in Orange County for most of the next 40 years.

When my brother and I were very young growing up and our home town of Westminster, CA had 2800 residents we were constantly dismayed by the influx of 'foreigners' from the other states, thought the state needed a 6 lane freeway (that was considered big at the time) going one way--either east or into the ocean.

Now we are just sending those immigrants and their progeny back 'home'. Some of the progeny have made bucks on the hyped economy here and are doing in the people that stayed 'home' and are still living on the local economy.

Too be fair, most of the immigrants did not come from Arizona--seems they knew when they had a good thing.

[abelew]

I don't think that keeping a gun, or 2 for self defense at home is a bad thing. If you don't want to do it, not really my problem, my concern, nor am I going to worry about it. However, I do, and I would not hesitate to use it if need be. The chances of needing it are small, but small when it comes to my life, is too big. I own 2 large dogs, have plants with painful thorns (in FLA, there are some goodies) planted in strategic places to make my home less of a target. Is that over the top? I don't think so. Better that they don't even try to get in, then me have to shoot them/dogs tear them apart, wife scratch them with her nails, right?