The .45 Auto Rim is now obsolete?

[disseminator]

I can tell you that I use the same bullets across the three calibers: 45 ACP, Auto Rim, and 45 Colt without issues.

Modern 45 Colt is using the same .451/.452 bullets as the 45 ACP and Auto Rim so necks are the same across the three rounds IF using a modern 45 Colt with the .451 Rifling such as my Ruger original Vaquero and modern brass. I use Starline across the board.

I have Redding 45 Auto Rim Profile Crimp and they are producing one already for the 45 Cowboy but I am sure it's the very same die.

It would be fine and maybe even preferable to use a taper crimp in the 45 Cowboy depending on your bullet selection.

No need to modify any dies, unless you want too.

[TruthTellers]

Most revolvers today can't use the Auto Rim because the rim is too thick, so .45 ACP revolvers are stuck either using moon clips or ejecting brass with a rod.

I've seen a video where somebody had to trim the case of the Cowboy Special brass to fully chamber in a .45 ACP Blackhawk cylinder. Once the brass was trimmed, it worked fine in the Blackhawk.

For other revolvers... Idk. I think it's something we'll have to test in various .45 ACP revolvers to see if this brass will work. If it does, it does make the .45 AR obsolete for everything except the old M1917 because this brass can work in any .45 Colt revolver.

[Bob Wright]

TruthTellers, please explain:

Most revolvers today can't use the Auto Rim because the rim is too thick, so .45 ACP revolvers are stuck either using moon clips or ejecting brass with a rod.

If the revolver can take the .45 ACP with clips, why can't it take .45 AR?

I've had several M-1917 Colts and S&W guns, plus the Models 25 and 625 and all took .45 ACP and AR with ease.

Bob Wright

[tipoc]

The same with me. In my experience, and it was only a few weeks ago, the Auto Rim works in 45 acp revolvers.

tipoc

[jski]

44 AMP, you're probably right in that the dimensions of this case are based on the .45 Colt case's SAAMI specs. I think what he was more specifically referring to was the tapering of the inside wall of the case. As a matter of fact, I do remember him mentioning just that point.

But he was also VERY clear on another point, these cases are tested to the same pressures levels as the .45 ACP cases. Of course, that doesn't mean your revolver can handle those pressures.

[tipoc]

New ammo for this round from American Cowboy Ammo

http://acammo.com/index.php/products

American Cowboy Ammo is pleased to introduce the New ACA Cowboy .45 Special. This new load has a very low recoil, a reloadable brass case, and it features a 180 grain, round nose, flat point bullet that is ideal for improving your shooting velocity.

ACA Cowboy .45 Special

180 Grain Round Nose Flat Point

New Proprietary Brass Case

Reloadable

Muzzle Velocity: 475 fps

Perfect for Target Shooting, Training, Competition and Plinking

This is useful regarding pressures and reloading.

http://www.dakotaskipper.net/ebay/cowboy45special.pdf


tipoc

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by Bob Wright

TruthTellers, please explain:



If the revolver can take the .45 ACP with clips, why can't it take .45 AR?

I've had several M-1917 Colts and S&W guns, plus the Models 25 and 625 and all took .45 ACP and AR with ease.

Bob Wright

I can't speak for every .45 ACP revolver, but most revolvers that I'm personally interested in can't use .45 AR.

I have no interest in the S&W 25 and 625, so I was unaware that they worked with them.

[jski]

Tipoc, I wonder if these are Starline brass?

Their (Starline's) tech guy said their .45 Special brass is tested to the same pressure levels as the .45 ACP.

BTW, check out: Review On New 45 Cowboy Special Brass From Starline

[USSR]

First of all, let me say, the premise that one cartridge case is obsolete because a new cartridge case is available for an entirely different cartridge is somewhat silly. Second, the idea that the new case is anything other than a shorter version of the .45 Colt case is equally silly. Tested to the pressure levels of the .45 ACP? That is only 23k psi when talking about .45 ACP +P pressure level. When .45 Colt brass are regularly subjected to Ruger pressure levels that exceed 30K+ psi, why would testing to 23K psi tell us anything? Does anyone seriously think that Starline in addition to shortening a .45 Colt case to create the .45 Special case, also decided to "weaken" it?

Don

[Driftwood Johnson]

Guys

The 45CS WILL NOT work in revolvers chambered for 45ACP. Just about any revolver chambered for 45ACP will have the extra .030 of headspace at the rear of the cylinder for 45ACP moon clips. That is why the 45 Auto Rim has a rim thickness of .090. 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, and 45 Cowboy Special all have a rim thickness of .060. If you place a cartridge with a .060 rim thickness in a revolver with the extra .030 of headspace, the cartridge will slop back and forth. When the hammer falls, if the cartridge is all the way forward, the firing pin will not protrude enough to reliably ignite the primer. If it does ignite, the round will recoil back an extra .030 before striking the recoil shield, which is not going to be good for the revolver. Trust me on this, I just tried chambering a 45CS in a S&W Model 1917 and a S&W Model 1955 Target, both chambered for 45ACP.

Yes, the 45CS was developed primarily for Cowboy Action Shooting, so many shooters believe it is only for Single Action revolvers. That is incorrect, it can be fired in any revolver chambered for 45 Colt.

Yes, that is why Trail Boss was developed, to reduce the extra empty space in large capacity Black Powder cartridges. However, many shooters believe Trail Boss is a Black Powder substitute. It is not, it is a modern Smokeless powder developing Smokeless pressures.

[natman]

The title of this thread should get a prize for most misleading thread title. It's cool that the 45 Special is now available for CAS shooters who want to make extra light loads to shoot in their 45 Colts.

Since the 45 Auto Rim is used in completely different guns and the two are not interchangeable, the introduction of the 45 Special doesn't make the 45 AR any more obsolete than it already was.

[OzeanJaeger]

Beat me to it Driftwood. 5X5

I was going to mention the Cheerio "powder".

[tipoc]

Well I was poking around and found some things out. Also that I was wrong on a thing or two.

Remember this is a round most of us know little about so sweeping claims can lead a fella like me to say "I was off on that". It's better to speak from actual experience with this round.

1. The 45 CS (that's Cowboy Special) cartridge was developed in about 2005 by Adirondack Jack out of N.Y. for use in shooting lighter loads of the 45 Colt round in Cowboy action shooting where speed is needed to compete. A wildcat round. From 2005 to the present the brass has been made by Starline. It's been called the 45 Cowboy, or 45 Special but it's all the same round. Essentially it's a 45 Colt case cut down to the length of the 45 acp. It's not a new round.

Best source for some basic info is here...

https://forum.cartridgecollectors.or...-special/16974

2. Left to right below, 45 acp, 45 AR and 45 Colt



Note the width of the rim and the diameter of the rims.

45 AR rim dia. will vary from .512-.516, thickness or rim is from .080 to .089
this is the actual measurements of the cases above and the specs from the books.

45 Colt rim diameter .507-.512 and the thickness .055 to .060

I don't have a case for the 45 CS but the dimensions of the rim should be identical to the 45 Colt. The IAA places it identical to the 45 Colt except for the OAL.

The diameter of the 45 AR rim is wider than that of the 45 Colt by a few thousands. The rim is thicker by almost .030"

3. The 45 Colt CS will chamber and fire from any revolver chambered in 45 Colt, obviously. But what about wheelguns chambered in 45 acp?

Any older da revolvers like the Colt and S&W M1917 and the M25, all in 45 acp that were meant for the use of 6 round clips the 45 AR will chamber and thus the 45 CS should chamber. Remember, these guns could also fire the 45 acp without the clips and were intended to. So the rearward movement of the cases after firing was not a critical issue.

But, there is a newer batch of 45 acp 5 shot da revolvers, some with recessed faces, where the 45 AR will not fit due to the cylinder being smaller. These guns were not built with the 45 AR in mind. It's possible in some that the 45CS will also not fit but one has to see about that, case by case. The rim of the 45CS is close to the same diameter as the 45 AR.

I've also read complaints about the old model Blackhawk with switch 45 cylinders as well on the Ruger forum. In single action revolvers with a 45 acp cylinder the rimless 45 acp rests on the case mouth.

4. Pressure. The 45 CS should be capable of working at 45 acp pressures. The same is true for the 45 Colt by the way. If the guns are not older guns, older meaning pre-smokeless powder, or built for black powder only. But there are debates about this over the years. So build up slowly.

tipoc

[disseminator]

The 45CS WILL NOT work in revolvers chambered for 45ACP. Just about any revolver chambered for 45ACP will have the extra .030 of headspace at the rear of the cylinder for 45ACP moon clips. That is why the 45 Auto Rim has a rim thickness of .090. 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, and 45 Cowboy Special all have a rim thickness of .060. If you place a cartridge with a .060 rim thickness in a revolver with the extra .030 of headspace, the cartridge will slop back and forth. When the hammer falls, if the cartridge is all the way forward, the firing pin will not protrude enough to reliably ignite the primer. If it does ignite, the round will recoil back an extra .030 before striking the recoil shield, which is not going to be good for the revolver. Trust me on this, I just tried chambering a 45CS in a S&W Model 1917 and a S&W Model 1955 Target, both chambered for 45ACP.

Driftwood, do you have a 625? The reason I am thinking it would work fine is in my 625JM I can load 45 ACP with or without the clips and they headspace correctly. I don't have any 45 Cowboy, and probably won't as I use Trail Boss and have mucho 45 Colt brass, but it looks as though the COAL is the same with 45 Cowboy and if so, it should chamber and fire reliably in a 625.

I normally shoot the 45 Auto Rim in my 625 but it shoots the Auto Rim and the ACP with the same boring reliability. (After having sent it back to the factory, but that's a story for another thread.)

More choices are always good.

Also, Staline says that the 45 Colt brass they sell is tested to the same pressure as their 44 Magnum brass: 40000 psi

Now I might have to order a bag of brass to play with.....

[44 AMP]

all in 45 acp that were meant for the use of 6 round clips the 45 AR will chamber and thus the 45 CS should chamber.

Two small points with this statement, first I believe (will have to check to be certain, but I believe) that the 1917s and similar guns were used with the 3 round half moon clips early on, and the 6 rnd full moon clips didn't come out till much later.

Second, I just did some checking with some .45 Colt rounds and a Ruger Blackhawk .45acp cylinder.

The only reason the .45 Colt fits in the chamber is that the ammo is made SMALLER than the specs. I will assume the .45 Special is the same way.

The specs (and yes, they are the max allowed) show .45 Colt at 0.480" at the case mouth, which should NOT fit in a .45ACP chamber, however, the actual rounds I measured go only 0.476 at the case mouth, which is the same as the case head max spec for the .45acp.

SO, between ammo made slightly undersize (and I will assume the .45 Special is the same as the .45 Colt in this) and chambers being at least large enough for the max size ACP case, then the rounds fit (except for the length).

SO, it is POSSIBLE that a .45 Special, at the large end of the tolerance range and a .45ACP chamber at the small end of the range might not work together.

[Dave T]

A 180g bullet at 475 fps! People who shoot this aught to be embarrassed. Good grief!

Get ya a 38 Special and shoot target wadcutters for heaven's sake.

Dave

[James K]

Just to confuse things still further, the .45 AR is a good case for use in guns made for the .455 Webley and some other cartridges IF part of the rim is trimmed away at the FRONT, leaving a rim of normal thickness. Now that we have a case available that is the correct diameter and an almost normal revolver rim (diameter a bit too small for really reliable extraction) AR cases will not be necessary.

Jim

[disseminator]

A 180g bullet at 475 fps! People who shoot this aught to be embarrassed. Good grief!

I made a comment to a Cowboy shooting buddy of mine that the loads they were shooting at steel sounded kind of "light", he said if you think these are light hang around a while I think some of these guys don't even add any powder to their loads.

They sounded like someone throwing a rock at the steel.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Driftwood, do you have a 625? The reason I am thinking it would work fine is in my 625JM I can load 45 ACP with or without the clips and they headspace correctly. I don't have any 45 Cowboy, and probably won't as I use Trail Boss and have mucho 45 Colt brass, but it looks as though the COAL is the same with 45 Cowboy and if so, it should chamber and fire reliably in a 625.

No, I do not. The only revolvers I have chambered for 45 ACP are three S&W Model 1917s and my Model 1955 Target. These all have the standard extra .030 behind the cylinder, and if your 625 is chambered for 45 ACP it will too. If you crimp with a roll crimp you will not get the 45 CS to seat properly in a 45 ACP chamber. A roll crimp will not seat properly against the 90 degree ledge in a 45 ACP chamber. If you use a taper crimp, you might get the round to headspace on the case mouth, but that is not how the 45CS is designed. It is meant to headspace on the rim just like any other revolver cartridge. If you get it to headspace on the case mouth, the rim will be standing .030 proud of the rear of the cylinder. This may or may not cause a problem, but it is certainly not the way the 45CS was conceived in the first place.

Regarding the original configuration of moon clips, yes, they were half moon clips. Here is one of my 1917s (made in 1918) along with a box of ammo also made in 1918.

[Mike Irwin]

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think that full moon clips came onto the US market until after World War II.

[Nanuk]

I laugh at the notion of these "super light loads" and it is one of the many reasons I quite cowboy shooting many years ago. In my mind the cowboy, gunfighter, western lawman etc use the most powerful handgun they could afford.

I used a pair of original model Ruger Vaquero's in 44 magnum. I loaded 240 grain LSWC's to the SASS max velocity (1000 fps). I was constantly chided that I could shoot faster if I ran light loads, rifle targets I could spit on from the firing line.

In the SASS rule book they have a catch all phrase " Spirit of the game" if your loads are as weak as many I saw, to me that is the clearest indication of spirit of the game and "gaming" as I have ever seen. It evolved away from a sport and into a costume party equipment race a long time ago.

45 short..... No thanks, besides I doubt they will feed in a 45 Colt lever gun.

[Nanuk]

A 180g bullet at 475 fps! People who shoot this aught to be embarrassed. Good grief!

Could not agree more!

Get ya a 38 Special and shoot target wadcutters for heaven's sake.

Those that use 38's do the same thing. That is what the "fastest" guy here does.

[Driftwood Johnson]

I laugh at the notion of these "super light loads" and it is one of the many reasons I quite cowboy shooting many years ago. In my mind the cowboy, gunfighter, western lawman etc use the most powerful handgun they could afford.

I used a pair of original model Ruger Vaquero's in 44 magnum. I loaded 240 grain LSWC's to the SASS max velocity (1000 fps). I was constantly chided that I could shoot faster if I ran light loads, rifle targets I could spit on from the firing line.

In the SASS rule book they have a catch all phrase " Spirit of the game" if your loads are as weak as many I saw, to me that is the clearest indication of spirit of the game and "gaming" as I have ever seen. It evolved away from a sport and into a costume party equipment race a long time ago.

45 short..... No thanks, besides I doubt they will feed in a 45 Colt lever gun.

Believe it or not, there are some of us who march to a different drummer. I have been using nothing but cartridges stuffed to the gills with Black Powder in CAS for years now. I don't give a hoot how fast I shoot, I enjoy blasting away at targets and ducking and weaving so I can see the targets through the smoke.

I never win any prizes but I have a lot of fun.

[Nanuk]

Believe it or not, there are some of us who march to a different drummer. I have been using nothing but cartridges stuffed to the gills with Black Powder in CAS for years now. I don't give a hoot how fast I shoot, I enjoy blasting away at targets and ducking and weaving so I can see the targets through the smoke.

I never win any prizes but I have a lot of fun.

You DA MAN!

[44 AMP]

In the beginning, Cowboy Action shooting was fun. The people were friendly, and the attitude was "shoot something that is, or looks Old West-ish, and wear a cowboy hat. And, we'll lend you the hat if you don't have your own".

Along come the gamesmen, with their new rules, and that changed pretty quickly.

Can't shoot my Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt, they say. (ok can shoot it in "modern class, only)

Why not, its an 1873 round!!

Sorry, no, your gun has adjustable sights! Modern class only!!

What if I promise not to adjust the sights??

still "No!"

can't shoot my Ruger No.3 .45-70
Why not its an 1873 round!
sorry, your gun doesn't have a hammer! Modern class only (or go home)

And that was just the beginning.

Today it's barking ridiculous. There's a huge double standard.

They exclude guns that aren't "traditional" (or traditional enough to satisfy them) and at the same time allow (or even encourage) calibers and loads that not only aren't traditional, but would have been sneered at by any cowboy who actually might have to use the gun for a real purpose.

180gr @ 475fps! Wow!! I am impressed!

Gamesmen took the Practical out of IPSC, and the "Stock cars" that they race these days aren't even remotely "stock". Shooting uber light loads (including .38 special wadcutters) is kind of like using the cheat codes in video games, to me. Double standard big time.

Won't allow a Blackhawk, because of the sights (too "modern"), but will allow a .38 Special (which didn't exist until 1902), won't allow a 9mm Luger (which ALSO didn't exist until 1902).

Upper velocity limit, too much power is baaaadd, but cat sneeze loads are just fine. Accuracy needed? not much, all you have to do is hit the target, somewhere...

I think cowboy shooting would benefit from a "mad cow" or Stampede event. Set up a popper or falling plate type target, one that needs a certain amount of momentum, in the right spot, to be knocked over. One where the force needed can be met by all the standard loads from period cartridges, but not by the 'cat sneeze" light loads. You have to stop that charging cow, or be trampled. To do it, you need enough power, in the right place, not just any hit in any place.

And make it a pass/fail thing. Like, you have to drop the steer within a time period (like how fast a running cow will cover the 15yds or whatever the distance is from it to you), not the fastest guy to drop it wins, but everyone who fails to stop it in time loses. That's a real world situation a cowboy might face, but the gamesmen will hate it. Claim "tis not fair!!" etc.

800lbs of scared cow doesn't care about "fair".

I can see a use for the .45 Special (though not one that applies to me), but I don't see a NEED for it. After all, .45 Colt brass + case trimmer+a little effort = .45 "special" short brass.

180gr bullet at 475fps??? I'd be afraid that if I shot a rat with that, the rat would catch the bullet and throw it back at me, FASTER than I shot it!