1866 Springfield

ligonierbill · March 28, 2015, 09:42 AM

Looking at 1873 Springfields I've noticed a few 1866 models in 50-70. I have to admit that I was not aware of this earlier model, but apparently it was fairly popular until the "new" 1873 came out. Any words of wisdom for someone considering one?

James K · March 28, 2015, 11:06 AM

I don't know how much "wisdom" I can impart, but here is a brief history. At the end of the Civil War, the Army had millions of rifle muskets, of many descriptions and from many sources. They first determined to sell off the clunkers (odd calibers, foreign manufacture, etc.). They knew very well that the day of muzzle loading military rifles was gone and that metallic cartridge rifles were the wave of the present. But after any war, there is a period of budget cutting for the military ("the war is over, what do we need an army for?) so it would be nice if all those old muskets could be converted to use the new ammunition, saving many dollars (or pounds, or francs, or marks).

So the Army tried several conversion systems and settled on one invented by a Springfield Armory employee, Erskine S. Allin. It employed a forward hinged breechblock, commonly called the "trapdoor". The first model, the Model 1865, was a true conversion; the whole rifle was the same except for the breechblock and the hammer, plus minor changes to the lockplate. The caliber was .58 rimfire so the barrel was not altered. Some 5000 Model 1865 rifles were produced by Springfield Armory.

The next model, the 1866 still used mostly Civil War guns but the caliber was changed to .50-70 center fire, both by lining .58 barrels and later by making new barrels. 52,300 of the Model 1866 were made, all conversions. There was a cadet rifle version, very rare, with only 424 turned out.

The Model 1868 still used musket parts, but the receivers were new, as were most barrels; the caliber was still .50-70. 52,145 were produced.

The Model 1869 carbine and 1870 rifle are uncommon today, only 11,533 rifles and 3422 carbines having been made.

Finally, in 1873, the first truly new rifle was made, even though some CW parts were still employed. The locks, receivers and barrels were all new and so was the caliber, .45-70. Rifle, carbine and cadet versions were made and served as the first line U.S. shoulder arms for 20 years; some remained in service with NG and reserve units into the 20th century.

Jim

SIGSHR · March 28, 2015, 01:57 PM

Issued guns are not really "popular" but troops have to make due with what they are issued. IIRC the .50-70 was not completely phased out until 1881, I read an account of a dig at the Rosebud battle site which noted the large number of .50-70 cases found.

James K · March 28, 2015, 07:58 PM

Don't forget than in most battles there are two sides. The .50-70 had been phased out in the U.S. Army, but IIRC the other side had some rifles in that caliber.

Jim

sgms · March 28, 2015, 08:52 PM

Probably near a dozen different types of breechloader conversions tried or built on contract like the Remington Rolling Blocks, have pictures of a pair of them from my collection, the side opener is a Needham M. 1861 conversion in .58 centerfire while the top opener is a Miller M. 1861 in .58 rimfire. Both seem a little weak in the hinge and cartridge extractor area.

**Mike Irwin** · March 29, 2015, 04:15 PM

.50-70 rifles were popular as civilian rifles when they were sold surplus starting in the mid 1870s.

They were cheap, the ammo was plentiful, and they had good power.

Many were sold to civilians moving west. Enough power to deal with heavy plains game, including bison.

It was not uncommon for them to show up in various battles.

James K · March 29, 2015, 04:31 PM

All the world's armies faced the same problem - hundreds of thousands of suddenly obsolete muskets, to be either converted or scrapped. And there were many ingenious solutions, some more ingenious than practical.

One famous conversion that later was made as a new rifle was the British Snider, with a breechblock that pivoted to the left side.

The French adopted a similar conversion though, being French, they made it to open the other way. It was the one called the "tabatiere" (snuffbox) from a fancied resemblance to the way the top of a snuffbox opened. When they were finally sold off to Belgian arms dealers, many were converted to shotguns, usually called "Zulu", and sold around the world, including the U.S., where they showed up in mail-order catalogs for as little as $2.50.

Jim

Tidewater_Kid · March 29, 2015, 08:38 PM

I have two 1866 Trapdoors, one 1868 and one 1884. I like shooting all of them. The 50-70 is an easy cartridge to load for and easy to get the brass. You can't go wrong with any of them. My two 1866 rifles have sleeved barrels.

TK

SIGSHR · March 30, 2015, 02:26 PM

IIRC Buffalo Bill had a 50-70-he called it a "needle gun"- named Lucretia Borgia
which was his favorite hunting rifle.

James K · March 30, 2015, 03:53 PM

Hi, Tidewater_kid,

I suggest checking the date on that second rifle again. All Model 1866's were converted muskets and none were made after 1869 except for one (I don't know why) in 1871.

Jim

Tidewater_Kid · March 30, 2015, 08:38 PM

Should have said models. Two model 1866, one model 1868 and one model 1884.

Sorry for the confusion.

James K · March 31, 2015, 01:46 PM

The term "needle gun" for the trapdoor had its origin in the German Dreyse Model 1841 rifle which had a needle-like firing pin that penetrated the powder charge to ignite a percussion pellet at the base of the bullet. Many Americans had heard about, but had never seen a true "needle gun", but knew that the Springfield rifles had a long, thin firing pin and transferred the term to the American gun.

Jim

March 28, 2015, 09:42 AM	#1
ligonierbill Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2007 Posts: 2,448	1866 Springfield Looking at 1873 Springfields I've noticed a few 1866 models in 50-70. I have to admit that I was not aware of this earlier model, but apparently it was fairly popular until the "new" 1873 came out. Any words of wisdom for someone considering one?

March 29, 2015, 04:15 PM	#6
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,379	.50-70 rifles were popular as civilian rifles when they were sold surplus starting in the mid 1870s. They were cheap, the ammo was plentiful, and they had good power. Many were sold to civilians moving west. Enough power to deal with heavy plains game, including bison. It was not uncommon for them to show up in various battles. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

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March 28, 2015, 11:06 AM	#2
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I don't know how much "wisdom" I can impart, but here is a brief history. At the end of the Civil War, the Army had millions of rifle muskets, of many descriptions and from many sources. They first determined to sell off the clunkers (odd calibers, foreign manufacture, etc.). They knew very well that the day of muzzle loading military rifles was gone and that metallic cartridge rifles were the wave of the present. But after any war, there is a period of budget cutting for the military ("the war is over, what do we need an army for?) so it would be nice if all those old muskets could be converted to use the new ammunition, saving many dollars (or pounds, or francs, or marks). So the Army tried several conversion systems and settled on one invented by a Springfield Armory employee, Erskine S. Allin. It employed a forward hinged breechblock, commonly called the "trapdoor". The first model, the Model 1865, was a true conversion; the whole rifle was the same except for the breechblock and the hammer, plus minor changes to the lockplate. The caliber was .58 rimfire so the barrel was not altered. Some 5000 Model 1865 rifles were produced by Springfield Armory. The next model, the 1866 still used mostly Civil War guns but the caliber was changed to .50-70 center fire, both by lining .58 barrels and later by making new barrels. 52,300 of the Model 1866 were made, all conversions. There was a cadet rifle version, very rare, with only 424 turned out. The Model 1868 still used musket parts, but the receivers were new, as were most barrels; the caliber was still .50-70. 52,145 were produced. The Model 1869 carbine and 1870 rifle are uncommon today, only 11,533 rifles and 3422 carbines having been made. Finally, in 1873, the first truly new rifle was made, even though some CW parts were still employed. The locks, receivers and barrels were all new and so was the caliber, .45-70. Rifle, carbine and cadet versions were made and served as the first line U.S. shoulder arms for 20 years; some remained in service with NG and reserve units into the 20th century. Jim

March 28, 2015, 01:57 PM	#3
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	Issued guns are not really "popular" but troops have to make due with what they are issued. IIRC the .50-70 was not completely phased out until 1881, I read an account of a dig at the Rosebud battle site which noted the large number of .50-70 cases found.

March 28, 2015, 07:58 PM	#4
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Don't forget than in most battles there are two sides. The .50-70 had been phased out in the U.S. Army, but IIRC the other side had some rifles in that caliber. Jim

March 29, 2015, 04:31 PM	#7
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	All the world's armies faced the same problem - hundreds of thousands of suddenly obsolete muskets, to be either converted or scrapped. And there were many ingenious solutions, some more ingenious than practical. One famous conversion that later was made as a new rifle was the British Snider, with a breechblock that pivoted to the left side. The French adopted a similar conversion though, being French, they made it to open the other way. It was the one called the "tabatiere" (snuffbox) from a fancied resemblance to the way the top of a snuffbox opened. When they were finally sold off to Belgian arms dealers, many were converted to shotguns, usually called "Zulu", and sold around the world, including the U.S., where they showed up in mail-order catalogs for as little as $2.50. Jim

March 29, 2015, 08:38 PM	#8
Tidewater_Kid Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2005 Location: Alabama Posts: 925	I have two 1866 Trapdoors, one 1868 and one 1884. I like shooting all of them. The 50-70 is an easy cartridge to load for and easy to get the brass. You can't go wrong with any of them. My two 1866 rifles have sleeved barrels. TK

March 30, 2015, 02:26 PM	#9
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	IIRC Buffalo Bill had a 50-70-he called it a "needle gun"- named Lucretia Borgia which was his favorite hunting rifle.

March 30, 2015, 03:53 PM	#10
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, Tidewater_kid, I suggest checking the date on that second rifle again. All Model 1866's were converted muskets and none were made after 1869 except for one (I don't know why) in 1871. Jim

March 30, 2015, 08:38 PM	#11
Tidewater_Kid Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2005 Location: Alabama Posts: 925	Should have said models. Two model 1866, one model 1868 and one model 1884. Sorry for the confusion.

March 31, 2015, 01:46 PM	#12
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The term "needle gun" for the trapdoor had its origin in the German Dreyse Model 1841 rifle which had a needle-like firing pin that penetrated the powder charge to ignite a percussion pellet at the base of the bullet. Many Americans had heard about, but had never seen a true "needle gun", but knew that the Springfield rifles had a long, thin firing pin and transferred the term to the American gun. Jim