Gun Shows

['88Scrat]

I went to a local show today and couldn't help but be reminded why I love this hobby, and how I "lived and learned".

Let me start from the beginning, its a little lengthy but bear with me.

I went to a local show today just to look around really, I brought some cash with me in case I found something but really didn't expect to. I took my time and talked with a few vendors as I meandered my way through the show.

One group of 3 guys (all older gentleman, 60+, more on this later) seemed to specialize in M1903 and M1 Garand rifles. They even had a display that showed all examples of M1 Garands from all the different manufacturers through the years including the weird ones Beretta made before they had the BM59s. On the other side they had one example of every Garand ever made under each of the 6 contracts by Winchester. Very cool stuff! I spent about half an hour just learning everything I could from these guys. Eventually I got back to looking around the rest of the show, one guy had a very similar display except it focused on SMLE rifles while another one had an impressive collection of Luger pistols. After a while I wandered into the back of the show room floor.

And then I saw it, a Remington M1903 that looked to be in pristine condition. Serial number put it as a 1942 production and it had a barrel to match. It had a scant stock and a Kerr sling, the finish looked excellent and it even came with with period correct cleaning kit and oilier in the butt stock. I asked what he wanted. The guy wanted $1,500. I laughed. He didn't. I walked away. Fast forward about an hour and as I'm leaving the show who comes up to me but M1903 guy. Apparently I was the only one who showed interest in his rifle. He said he could do $1,250 cash. Now at this point I'm thinking of all of the M1903s I've seen at this show, not one of which had an asking price of less than $900 and most of which looked like they had been rode hard and put away wet. I know just enough about the M1903 to get myself in trouble so I (try to) tread carefully. I also know that if I ever purchased one I would want to put a scant stock on it anyway. I countered with $1,150 and we shook on it.

Now here I am all excited about my new rifle that I feel pretty good about and promptly take it to the guys with the cool M1 Garand display to see what they can tell me about my new rifle. They take a look at it and agree that it is indeed a nice rifle. It is a Remington made rifle with all period correct Remington parts. They ask me what I paid for it and I proudly tell them. They shared a look that was somewhere between pity and humor. I ask them what they thought it was worth, they tell me probably no more than $750-$800 for the rifle alone, most of the M1903 rifles they have seen at this show are drastically overpriced.

My heart fell into my stomach and I think I actually had tears in my eyes when I realized my stupidity. They notice this and ask to see the rifle again. One of them, a gentleman of about 75 or so, takes a look at and tells me that there are a few things that are not quite correct with how it is put together. He goes over a small list of issues; the front band is on backwards, the screws on the wrong side of the rifle, and somewhere in the rifles life someone had used hardware from an M1903A3 to keep it together. As he keeps pointing things out my heart falls through my stomach to the floor.

And then something AWESOME happened. He looks at me and says "Yeah I can fix all of this for you". He went to a table close by and talked to the guy
he knew at that table who had various parts for M1903s and M1 for sale. He came back with all the correct screws and hardware, flipped the band around so it was facing the right way, moved all the screws to the right side, and put a new stack swivel on. Then he handed the rifle to one of the other guys who cleaned it with some Hoppes, inspected the bore, used a throat gauge to check erosion and proclaimed that the barrel looked almost like new. He asked me if I knew had to use the rifle; i.e. the magazine cutoff, battle sight zero, and ladder sights. I responded "Kind of..." He spent the next hour going over how all that worked and answered my questions with superb clarity.

After all was said and done they did not charge me for any of the work or hardware they used to fix up my rifle. I thanked them whole heartily but asked them why. They were very candid, one of them explained that we've all been there, overpaid for a rifle or pistol and instantly regretted it, although he alluded that between the Kerr sling and the fact that even if I had bought a regular M1903 I would have wanted to replace the stock with a scant or C-stock anyway I might not have done as bad as I thought. They went on to say that they were impressed with my inquires and interest when I'd stopped by the first time and were happy to see someone my age (I'm 28) with an interest in these old rifles instead of just black rifles and didn't want me to write them off due to one bad experience.

So there you have it, this is how my faith in fellow enthusiasts was wholly restored in a single day. So did I overpay for the rifle? Yeah, probably, but it is still a VERY nice example of the M1903. More importantly it brought together a group of complete strangers, strangers 3 or 4 decades apart in age, who have the same amazing hobby.

THIS is why I will continue to go to gun shows, the dedication, compassion, and knowledge of the people who attend them is truly unmatched.

[JoeSixpack]

Cool story, It's really hard to find quality knowledge like that on the internet.
I think a big reason they helped you is you had shown a genuine interest in those types of rifles, Something they obviously are passionate and knowledgeable about..

In such a way you already shared a bond whether either of you knew it or not.

[44 AMP]

The guy you bought it from was a gun seller, the guys who helped you out were gun enthusiasts.

The seller wants money, and profit. He even tracked you down to sell the gun.

The enthusiasts wants people to enjoy them the way they do, and often disdain money for their efforts, particularly when its clear they are increasing someone else's enjoyment of our common hobby.

There was a time when you could buy a good even pristine GI Springfield and if you paid $100 more than one would tell you that you paid too much.

When the next WWII,or any other "historical period" movie makes a big hit, or even a smaller one, the next time you see those guns at the show, expect higher asking prices than the last time you saw them.

Demand is created, and the supply of originals is fixed, and steadily declining.

[Evan Thomas]

That's a great story. It makes me sort of sad, though, that we're now a little surprised at the kindness of strangers, and have to come up with reasons for it, and all...

But anyway -- congrats on your new rifle! Enjoy it.

[larryh1108]

I agree, great story. It shows that there are people out there willing to share knowledge with those who are willing to listen. In this day of the internet, it seems that everyone just Googles their questions instead of seeking the answers from someone who has been there/done that.

Also, I don't think that you overpaid at all. You got a great rifle that you wanted, in great shape and you were happy. These old firearms may have a blue book value but that is all subjective. Those nice gents were probably quoting the wholesale value since that's what they deal in. In your words, you said you seldom see them for less than $900. You got a great gun at current retail. Screaming deal? No. Great gun? Yes.

[johnm1]

Well, if we were in this for the money than maybe it was a bad deal. But I get the impression you are, as 44Amp puts it, an enthusiast. Not a seller.

I've over paid on several occasions and joked that I didn't over pay, I just bought it too soon. (not my idea, I read it in someone else's signature line somewhere) But if you think about it, the money may not be as bad as it initially looks. Say the actual top dollar for the rifle today is $900 and you paid $1,200. But your an enthusiast and probably won't sell it for many years. You haven't lost the $300 unless you tried to sell it tomorrow. That would be a $300 loss. But if it is sold in 5 years for exactly what you paid for it, the actual amount you over paid isn't $300 anymore. It is really the change in value of the original $300.

You made your $300 back, you just can't buy as much with it in 5 years as you could today.

I would consider that amount the amount of rent I paid to own what I wanted. Lord knows we don't really own them. We're just temporary caretakers. And we all pay for that privilege.

Ok, so that's Polyanna'ish thinking and overly optimistic. But we're in this to enjoy these pieces of history. Unless your the 'Gun Seller'. But I suspect not.

['88Scrat]

I suppose I would consider myself an enthusiast. I've only ever sold 1 firearm come to think of it...

[CalmerThanYou]

Cool story. And if you keep the rifle you bought today, enjoy it, and then pass it down someday, you in no way overpaid.

[Carmike]

Very cool story...Thank you for sharing. I'm quite new to firearms. I owned my first one at the age of 32, three years ago, after I inherited four from an uncle who passed away. That was when I shot my first gun, went hunting for the first time, after many miserable hours got my first deer, and started on a minor collecting hobby.

All of which brings me to the point, and I really don't mean to hijack the thread, but as a newbie who's now been to a few gun shows, the seller's experience seems somewhat similar to mine. I have a very hard (impossible, more like it) time finding reasonable prices on guns. My experience has still been great, as I end up chatting up the guys who are proud of their collections and seem to me more interested in showing off their wonderful collections and talking about their prides and joys than selling them for a fair price. The $5 in the door is cheap tuition for me, and it's a good way to kill a rainy day. Is my experience common in this regard? Or maybe guys see me, figure out I don't know much (which is correct, I don't) and then hope that I'll pay a higher price? A bit of both?

Again, sorry for hijacking the thread. I can start a new one if my post is out of line, and my feelings won't be hurt if you say so.


Carmike

[Sevens]

Yep, excellent story. And I enjoy hearing positive reports from gun shows. I tend to enjoy all the ones I go to (probably 7-8 a year) but all I typically see in forums is pure whining about gun shows. I'm starting to think posters can only give a good gun show review if they come home with a new gun.

[Prndll]

Absolutely amazing.

THIS is what I'm looking for (perhaps in vain, maybe just out of faith). With all of society's issues; to know that this kinda thing is really still out there.

[DC_P]

Great story. I am new to shooting but have had similar experiences going to aviation museums and shows. Being 'taken in' by experienced people with the same passion but from a different generation makes for a fantastic day.

[Skans]

I also enjoyed reading this story. But, you shouldn't be sad about paying a few hundred dollars more than the $800 a few guys think the rifle is worth. Here is a list of some guns I once over-paid:

1. I paid $750 for an FN FNC folder - probably $100 more than it was worth....at the time.
2. I paid $1,100 for an Israeli heavy barrel FAL manufactured by SBL new in box.
3. I paid $2,500 for a full-auto AC556 - $300 more than I wanted to pay, but it was from a local dealer and the dealer absorbed the transfer fee.
4. I paid $1,000 for a 1957 Colt Python - good gun, but some of the finish was worn, so I paid $300 to have Colt refinish it for me. Everyone told me not to refinish it, I was wasting my money, etc, etc. I could sell it for $2K if I wanted to, maybe even more, but I like it too much to sell it.
5. I paid $900 for a nicely restored 1911, mfg 1913. I was told no one would ever want to buy it because it was restored. I happen to love this pistol, and admire the refinishing, as it was an expert restoration.
6. I paid $200 for an old Chinese SKS and a post-64 Winchester 30-30 to help out a friend. I sold the SKS for $250 and eventually gave my friend back his 30-30.
7. I paid about $700 for a Cobray open bolt M10 Carbine. My FFL asked me why I'd ever by such an ugly gun. I later sold it for a price I just couldn't refuse, even though I never intended on selling it. After I sold it, and I thought I made a lot of money on it, I found out that the Buyer may have been a bit smarter than me. I look at it this way - we both got what we wanted!
8. I paid $1,100 for a Colt Mustang. I know I over paid for that one, but it had genuine ivory grips, was 99+% and had serial number MU00044 - one of the 1st 50 Mustangs made in 1986. It might now just be worth about what I paid for it. Who knows, but it's a very cool gun to me!
9. More recently, I paid about $500 for a Dan Wesson revolver - pristine condition in box with all the right stuff - very first production run for Dan Wesson .357. Will it ever be worth thousands??? Who knows, but I love this gun!

Look, if you're going to collect guns, especially old, historical or collectable guns, you rarely ever will pay less than what it is worth. Most likely you will pay about what it's worth, if not sometimes more. If you collect good stuff, don't worry about it - you will like the gun whether it increases in value or not, and most likely it will increase in value. I could go on with more examples of "fair" deals that turned out to be good or great deals. +/- $300 is nothing for a historical gun that will never be made again. Let us know what it's worth in 8 years.

['88Scrat]

Well the Garand I bought for $650 six years would go for no less than $1000 now so I doubt I come out in the red. Not that I intend to sell my Garand or my M1903.

Man it feels good to be able to say that, "my Garand and my M1903"

[OldScout]

Never had much luck at a gun show, other than ammo and accessories. Where I live people are lined up waiting to get it, then pay an entrance fee, then fight the crowds. A couple years ago there was an "accidental" shooting in a local gun show. A customer was checking out a Ruger Mini-14, he pulled the trigger and it fired. A round when through a wooden support, just missed one customer, and hit another customer in the hip. Wasn't a real serious injury but he did do some hospital time.

[redlightrich]

There is a saying in the car hobby, that applies to certain collectible vehicles. "You didn't overpay, you just bought it too early".

If you are enjoying it, a few dollars is insignificant. You will spend more on ammo, and your enjoyment is invaluable.

We have all met the hustlers, who make every hobby they enter become ugly and dirty.

You also met the real nice people, who were happy to pass along their skill, and to further the interest in what they hold dear.

All in all, I think you have a better than average day!!!!

Congrats

Rich