Weapon lights - Page 2

MarkCO · October 19, 2014, 06:48 PM

Until a person has done a significant amount of practice and training in no and low-light situations, I would make the assertion that their answers are ignorant and should be ignored. Problem for the OP is that he has no way to "see" the experience and training level of the responders in this thread. Even those who were or are LEO, for the vast majority, are not sufficiently trained, especially with lights and lasers.

My opinions and tactics have changed significantly on this topic over the years. Exposure to alternative methods such as offset light use and diversionary tactics experienced in Dry-fire, FOF/Sims and live fire both acting alone and in teams as well as matches shot at night are the best ways to experience and test what works and what does not work.

You may have heard people say that you need 200, 500 or 1000 rounds through a firearm before you rely on it for defense and, at a minimum, 50 rounds a month to maintain a minimum level of proficiency. The use of weapon mounted lights is an advanced tactic, and can certainly be done with total safety and with complete adherence to the 4 laws of gun safety, but the training is needed. Based on the data only about 1% of CCW holders and only about 15% of LEOs consistently complete the minimum amount of recommended monthly training. So, for most people, I will say yes, a WML is likely beyond their skillset.

Motion lights and remote controlled lights are likely a better and safer alternative for the average HD focused gun owner than a WML.

Sharkbite · October 19, 2014, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Until a person has done a significant amount of practice and training in no and low-light situations, I would make the assertion that their answers are ignorant and should be ignored. Problem for the OP is that he has no way to "see" the experience and training level of the responders in this thread. Even those who were or are LEO, for the vast majority, are not sufficiently trained, especially with lights and lasers.

+A bunch on this comment

banditgriot · October 20, 2014, 01:41 AM

Lots of useful conversation in this post and while I have experienced first hand having a flashlight and weapon in my face, I believe many made good points about knowing your surroundings. I am going to stick to my current practice of using a flashlight w/loop with my HD gun. I have no problem racking the slide on my shotgun or handling my pistol with this set up. Thank you all for posting.

Dirty_Harry · October 20, 2014, 02:42 PM

I plan to take a HD course eventually. That said, I practice sweeping and checking corners of mine occasionally. I do have a TLR-1 on my P30, but I am not 100% I would use it. I suppose it depends on the situation. I can see well enough in my house in the dark to probably not need it.

Its kind of like a gun, better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

But as someone else said, I probably would go looking for trouble.

psalm7 · October 20, 2014, 04:21 PM

I have a Pentagon weapons light that I keep at 6: position on my carbine some times I swap it for a green laser . With a hand gun I use a a hand held light . I remember a story about SEALS having to clear some caves during operation anaconda in the Hindu Cush with their white lights because it was so dark their NOD's would not work . Some times a mounted light is practical sometimes not . I am looking into one of the back up lights that are about the size of a silver dollar for my Rem 870 that have 2 switches one for white light the other for red laser .

raimius · October 21, 2014, 06:09 PM

MarkCO, I agree in part.

Yes, training and experience are required to BEST utilize a light.
That said, in any defensive situation, positive ID of the threat is critical for both the defense and legal justification. I'm not saying that rolling around with a light constantly on is the best way to do things, but it does beat a literal shot in the dark.

MarkCO · October 21, 2014, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Yes, training and experience are required to BEST utilize a light.
That said, in any defensive situation, positive ID of the threat is critical for both the defense and legal justification. I'm not saying that rolling around with a light constantly on is the best way to do things, but it does beat a literal shot in the dark.

Well raimius, I completely agree with your post.

theJrod · November 7, 2014, 05:51 PM

Quote:

A weapons mounted light is a GREAT tool to AUGMENT a handheld light.

I agree with this. I have a personal light on the nightstand for checking out things that go bump in the night, whether it's one of my kids, a pet, an animal outside, etc. I wouldn't want to use my pistol light for those things. But my pistol still does have a light on it, for the very rare case that it's needed.

Yung.gunr · November 7, 2014, 07:01 PM

For my situation of not being any kind of LEO I like having a light on my guns. I want to be able to ID who I am planning on shooting at. I have a secondary light handy if it is needed.

I tried a Nebo light that a guy said lasted on his 12ga. The two I bought were both DOA out of the package. Got a Streamlight TLR1s. Highly recommend Streamlight. Great product and great CS.

boondocker385 · November 8, 2014, 10:19 AM

I have them on my work guns but not at home. At home I have dogs and light switches and plenty of flashlights if needed for house clearing....and my dogs clear the house like champs, smelling and hearing things that I dont....yes I have a lot of Fath in my dogs....

JeffK · November 8, 2014, 02:33 PM

I installed a streamlight TLR3 on my HK45, and dissenting opinions notwithstanding I'm quite happy to have it mounted on my gun. You must be able to see what you might shoot at, given obvious scenarios like bad guys invade at night, and a dimly lit indoor range isn't a bad place to practice with it. For any given scenario, there might be other ways to ensure you can see what you might shoot at, but it seems to me a gun-mounted light is fail-safe for all reasonable home defense (non-LEO, non-CCW) scenarios, and the downsides are no worse than the downsides of alternatives (like, bad guy can see you too, or can guess where you are). It's really easy to flip on too, and on my full-size HK45 I can mount it far enough forward that it has no impact on my two-hand hold.

johnelmore · November 8, 2014, 02:34 PM

There are many threads on this site about the use of lights. I want to hear from people who have actually used the lights on a professional level. I see the police around here will blind them with the police car lights, but they dont shine flashlights at anyone.

Jim243 · November 8, 2014, 02:38 PM

Quote:

I would make the assertion that their answers are ignorant and should be ignored

That are my feelings exactly your attitude is ignorant and this thread should be ignored.

Jim

Model12Win · November 8, 2014, 05:13 PM

My .357 magnum stoked with 125 grain full power loads will make all the light I need once I touch off six round into the poor tango who infiltrates my perimeter.

Seriously though, it's a Sure-Fire light that rides shotgun with the revolver on my nighstand for easy and quick target I.D.

skizzums · November 8, 2014, 06:47 PM

I ordered one from china, for extremely cheap but extremely high lumen, a CREE of some sort. been sitting on my ar15 for 2000+ heavyweight loads. still works and have never changed the battery. are they a surefire? I dunno cause I don't have one, but it is BRIGHT and have no grets, took about 3 1/2 months to get here from china, but well worth it. it zooms in to such a tiny focused beam, I can see clearly over 100 yards away
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2Pcs-CREE-Q5...-/161146161973

fits well on Viking tactical mount
http://www.vikingtactics.com/product-p/vtac-mk4.htm

Stevie-Ray · November 8, 2014, 08:02 PM

I've got a Streamlight Polytac on an offset mount on my AR, but with my go-to weapon, my EDC, I simply keep my Sportsman Extreme close by.

SaveAmerica · November 8, 2014, 09:18 PM

There are a lot of good comments in this thread. I think a weapon mounted light is a double edged sword. Lets you see your target, but if not used right it gives your position away.

Anyway, I don't like pistol lights. But I have them on a couple ARs for outdoor use or indoors only if necessary.

I've had luck with the Streamlight TLR HL (model IIRC). I also, have a Vltor light mount with a 4Sevens Maelstrom light for longer throw. I also like the Fenix TK21 and TK15.

Dirty_Harry · November 10, 2014, 10:09 AM

Quote:

But as someone else said, I probably would go looking for trouble.

Definitely meant to say "wouldnt" here,

johnelmore · November 10, 2014, 07:54 PM

Well, I learned the following in this thread:

1) Unless its your job, dont go prowling around in the dark. If it is your job to prowl around in the dark I take it you have better resources than an anonymous internet forum.

2) Just turn on the lights.

3) Motion sensing lights is the way to go. I just saw a set at Costco for 35 dollars. If you really care about security nothing like a set of motion sensing lights.

One thing I wanted to add. I once read about a guy, maybe in that SWAT mag I think, who took advantage of the dark by hanging a cargo net on the stairwell at night creating a soft barrier for any burglar who wants to run up the stairs to the bedroom.

boondocker385 · November 10, 2014, 09:41 PM

@johne....if you use your WML to blind someone you are pointing your gun at them...you don't always want to do that.....

That said, most of my experience with a WML is for room clearing and searching spaces...works good when looking for bad guys, freaks out the non-badguys and draws complaints for law enforcement.

Hiker 1 · November 12, 2014, 09:55 AM

#26 from MarkCo is spot-on. A WML is a great tool to have but you have to know what you are doing. Threat identification is just a tad crucial.

There are assumptions in our community about how much time we're going to have to prepare ourselves in a defensive situation. We may not have time to gear up, turn on all the lights, barricade in and scare-pump the 870. Equipment consolidation may make a huge difference.

HKFan9 · November 12, 2014, 01:36 PM

I prefer a weapons mounted light...

I am not a SEAL or DELTA or even a LEO. However I am a person strongly invested in my own life, and firearms. I have land where I can and do practice shooting at night.

If someone else chooses a hand held light, more power to them, they both work the same way... however I prefer to have both hands on the gun. I do not feel 100% comfortable with self defense shooting with only 1 hand on the gun if I can have two.

I think it is important to know how to properly use a light, and use it with a pressure switch for quick searching, rather than to leave it flipped on. I would bet most of us live in rather normal homes, and don't need to search or shoot across a basketball court sized room. Yes lights can "give away your position" but my posotion most likely is going to be locked in my bedroom with the police on the phone. Even still... I would bet based on most of our homes.. theres going to be a lot more things that give away our position. Creaking bed frames, floor boards, stairs.. night lights, our footsteps. Even the motion of our bodies, in a dark quite situation, is pretty easy to detect motion.

Personally I am not a super Delta team six bravo ninja.... nor do I suspect that super delta team six bravo ninja's will be invading my home. Be prepared to defend your life the way YOU see fit. I laugh and shake my head when guys argue against using tritium night sights because they will give away their position because in my head I picture my average customer who is a 30-50yr old heavy set beer drinking football watching man trying to tip toe in his super delta team six bravo ninja pajamas covered in molle and velcro and be totaly stealth that a tiny faint green dot would give him away first.

Charles S · November 12, 2014, 05:17 PM

Quote:

I am not a SEAL or DELTA or even a LEO. However I am a person strongly invested in my own life, and firearms. I have land where I can and do practice shooting at night.

I applaud that. Professional training for night shooting... in my humble opinion is a must.

Quote:

If someone else chooses a hand held light, more power to them, they both work the same way... however I prefer to have both hands on the gun. I do not feel 100% comfortable with self defense shooting with only 1 hand on the gun if I can have two.

I prefer both a hand held light that is on a lanyard (easily dropped) and a weapons light. You are correct, they do work the same way, however some of prefer not to sweep everything we look at with the muzzle.

Professional training is important and is fun. The majority of us cannot just by a piano and be a musician. Why do we think we buy a gun and know what we are doing?

FAS1 · November 13, 2014, 09:37 AM

Quote:

I have mixed feelings about mounting a flashlight on either of the guns I use for home defense.

I don't have a WML on my HD handgun, but I do keep a small LED flashlight next to the bed. In my home, if I hear someone inside at night it would be very easy to see if my wife is next to me in the bed. If she is, I have already identified that you shouldn't be in my home.
In the dark, I have the advantage in my home and depending on the situation, I might use the flashlight.

I'm not clearing an apartment complex looking for a bad guy in a strange place with other people around.

CodeSection · November 14, 2014, 03:00 PM

Ok. Great arguments. For those of us considering a tactical light with a pressure switch on a rifle (Tavor), what brand would you recommend?

October 20, 2014, 02:42 PM	#29
Dirty_Harry Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2006 Location: Kalamazoo, MI Posts: 1,484	I plan to take a HD course eventually. That said, I practice sweeping and checking corners of mine occasionally. I do have a TLR-1 on my P30, but I am not 100% I would use it. I suppose it depends on the situation. I can see well enough in my house in the dark to probably not need it. Its kind of like a gun, better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. But as someone else said, I probably would go looking for trouble. __________________ "The only purpose for a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you never should have laid down." "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I expect the same from them." -John Wayne

November 8, 2014, 10:19 AM	#35
boondocker385 Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2013 Posts: 640	I have them on my work guns but not at home. At home I have dogs and light switches and plenty of flashlights if needed for house clearing....and my dogs clear the house like champs, smelling and hearing things that I dont....yes I have a lot of Fath in my dogs.... __________________ No second place finishes in a gun fight.

November 8, 2014, 06:47 PM	#40
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	I ordered one from china, for extremely cheap but extremely high lumen, a CREE of some sort. been sitting on my ar15 for 2000+ heavyweight loads. still works and have never changed the battery. are they a surefire? I dunno cause I don't have one, but it is BRIGHT and have no grets, took about 3 1/2 months to get here from china, but well worth it. it zooms in to such a tiny focused beam, I can see clearly over 100 yards away http://www.ebay.com/itm/2Pcs-CREE-Q5...-/161146161973 fits well on Viking tactical mount http://www.vikingtactics.com/product-p/vtac-mk4.htm __________________ My head is bloody, but unbowed

November 8, 2014, 08:02 PM	#41
Stevie-Ray Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: The shores of Lake Huron Posts: 4,783	I've got a Streamlight Polytac on an offset mount on my AR, but with my go-to weapon, my EDC, I simply keep my Sportsman Extreme close by. __________________ Stevie-Ray Join the NRA/ILA I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed.

November 10, 2014, 09:41 PM	#45
boondocker385 Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2013 Posts: 640	@johne....if you use your WML to blind someone you are pointing your gun at them...you don't always want to do that..... That said, most of my experience with a WML is for room clearing and searching spaces...works good when looking for bad guys, freaks out the non-badguys and draws complaints for law enforcement. __________________ No second place finishes in a gun fight.

October 19, 2014, 06:48 PM	#26
MarkCO Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 1998 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 4,308	Until a person has done a significant amount of practice and training in no and low-light situations, I would make the assertion that their answers are ignorant and should be ignored. Problem for the OP is that he has no way to "see" the experience and training level of the responders in this thread. Even those who were or are LEO, for the vast majority, are not sufficiently trained, especially with lights and lasers. My opinions and tactics have changed significantly on this topic over the years. Exposure to alternative methods such as offset light use and diversionary tactics experienced in Dry-fire, FOF/Sims and live fire both acting alone and in teams as well as matches shot at night are the best ways to experience and test what works and what does not work. You may have heard people say that you need 200, 500 or 1000 rounds through a firearm before you rely on it for defense and, at a minimum, 50 rounds a month to maintain a minimum level of proficiency. The use of weapon mounted lights is an advanced tactic, and can certainly be done with total safety and with complete adherence to the 4 laws of gun safety, but the training is needed. Based on the data only about 1% of CCW holders and only about 15% of LEOs consistently complete the minimum amount of recommended monthly training. So, for most people, I will say yes, a WML is likely beyond their skillset. Motion lights and remote controlled lights are likely a better and safer alternative for the average HD focused gun owner than a WML. __________________ Good Shooting, MarkCO www.CarbonArms.us

October 20, 2014, 01:41 AM	#28
banditgriot Senior Member Join Date: June 26, 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 132	Lots of useful conversation in this post and while I have experienced first hand having a flashlight and weapon in my face, I believe many made good points about knowing your surroundings. I am going to stick to my current practice of using a flashlight w/loop with my HD gun. I have no problem racking the slide on my shotgun or handling my pistol with this set up. Thank you all for posting.

October 20, 2014, 04:21 PM	#30
psalm7 Senior Member Join Date: March 7, 2014 Location: Middle TN Posts: 543	I have a Pentagon weapons light that I keep at 6: position on my carbine some times I swap it for a green laser . With a hand gun I use a a hand held light . I remember a story about SEALS having to clear some caves during operation anaconda in the Hindu Cush with their white lights because it was so dark their NOD's would not work . Some times a mounted light is practical sometimes not . I am looking into one of the back up lights that are about the size of a silver dollar for my Rem 870 that have 2 switches one for white light the other for red laser .

October 21, 2014, 06:09 PM	#31
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	MarkCO, I agree in part. Yes, training and experience are required to BEST utilize a light. That said, in any defensive situation, positive ID of the threat is critical for both the defense and legal justification. I'm not saying that rolling around with a light constantly on is the best way to do things, but it does beat a literal shot in the dark.

November 7, 2014, 07:01 PM	#34
Yung.gunr Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 2010 Location: Phoenix area Posts: 1,442	For my situation of not being any kind of LEO I like having a light on my guns. I want to be able to ID who I am planning on shooting at. I have a secondary light handy if it is needed. I tried a Nebo light that a guy said lasted on his 12ga. The two I bought were both DOA out of the package. Got a Streamlight TLR1s. Highly recommend Streamlight. Great product and great CS.

November 8, 2014, 02:33 PM	#36
JeffK Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2014 Posts: 206	I installed a streamlight TLR3 on my HK45, and dissenting opinions notwithstanding I'm quite happy to have it mounted on my gun. You must be able to see what you might shoot at, given obvious scenarios like bad guys invade at night, and a dimly lit indoor range isn't a bad place to practice with it. For any given scenario, there might be other ways to ensure you can see what you might shoot at, but it seems to me a gun-mounted light is fail-safe for all reasonable home defense (non-LEO, non-CCW) scenarios, and the downsides are no worse than the downsides of alternatives (like, bad guy can see you too, or can guess where you are). It's really easy to flip on too, and on my full-size HK45 I can mount it far enough forward that it has no impact on my two-hand hold.

November 8, 2014, 02:34 PM	#37
johnelmore Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2013 Posts: 456	There are many threads on this site about the use of lights. I want to hear from people who have actually used the lights on a professional level. I see the police around here will blind them with the police car lights, but they dont shine flashlights at anyone.

November 8, 2014, 05:13 PM	#39
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	My .357 magnum stoked with 125 grain full power loads will make all the light I need once I touch off six round into the poor tango who infiltrates my perimeter. Seriously though, it's a Sure-Fire light that rides shotgun with the revolver on my nighstand for easy and quick target I.D.

November 8, 2014, 09:18 PM	#42
SaveAmerica Member Join Date: October 2, 2009 Posts: 20	There are a lot of good comments in this thread. I think a weapon mounted light is a double edged sword. Lets you see your target, but if not used right it gives your position away. Anyway, I don't like pistol lights. But I have them on a couple ARs for outdoor use or indoors only if necessary. I've had luck with the Streamlight TLR HL (model IIRC). I also, have a Vltor light mount with a 4Sevens Maelstrom light for longer throw. I also like the Fenix TK21 and TK15.

November 10, 2014, 07:54 PM	#44
johnelmore Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2013 Posts: 456	Well, I learned the following in this thread: 1) Unless its your job, dont go prowling around in the dark. If it is your job to prowl around in the dark I take it you have better resources than an anonymous internet forum. 2) Just turn on the lights. 3) Motion sensing lights is the way to go. I just saw a set at Costco for 35 dollars. If you really care about security nothing like a set of motion sensing lights. One thing I wanted to add. I once read about a guy, maybe in that SWAT mag I think, who took advantage of the dark by hanging a cargo net on the stairwell at night creating a soft barrier for any burglar who wants to run up the stairs to the bedroom.

November 12, 2014, 09:55 AM	#46
Hiker 1 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2011 Location: Colorado Posts: 596	#26 from MarkCo is spot-on. A WML is a great tool to have but you have to know what you are doing. Threat identification is just a tad crucial. There are assumptions in our community about how much time we're going to have to prepare ourselves in a defensive situation. We may not have time to gear up, turn on all the lights, barricade in and scare-pump the 870. Equipment consolidation may make a huge difference.

November 12, 2014, 01:36 PM	#47
HKFan9 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2008 Posts: 3,057	I prefer a weapons mounted light... I am not a SEAL or DELTA or even a LEO. However I am a person strongly invested in my own life, and firearms. I have land where I can and do practice shooting at night. If someone else chooses a hand held light, more power to them, they both work the same way... however I prefer to have both hands on the gun. I do not feel 100% comfortable with self defense shooting with only 1 hand on the gun if I can have two. I think it is important to know how to properly use a light, and use it with a pressure switch for quick searching, rather than to leave it flipped on. I would bet most of us live in rather normal homes, and don't need to search or shoot across a basketball court sized room. Yes lights can "give away your position" but my posotion most likely is going to be locked in my bedroom with the police on the phone. Even still... I would bet based on most of our homes.. theres going to be a lot more things that give away our position. Creaking bed frames, floor boards, stairs.. night lights, our footsteps. Even the motion of our bodies, in a dark quite situation, is pretty easy to detect motion. Personally I am not a super Delta team six bravo ninja.... nor do I suspect that super delta team six bravo ninja's will be invading my home. Be prepared to defend your life the way YOU see fit. I laugh and shake my head when guys argue against using tritium night sights because they will give away their position because in my head I picture my average customer who is a 30-50yr old heavy set beer drinking football watching man trying to tip toe in his super delta team six bravo ninja pajamas covered in molle and velcro and be totaly stealth that a tiny faint green dot would give him away first.

November 14, 2014, 03:00 PM	#50
CodeSection Member Join Date: October 31, 2014 Posts: 86	Ok. Great arguments. For those of us considering a tactical light with a pressure switch on a rifle (Tavor), what brand would you recommend?