Colts

James K · February 23, 2014, 02:27 PM

On a number of occasions, discussions on this site have turned to the complexity of the old DA Colt design and the difficult of working with it.

As you may know, I don't do professional gunsmithing any more, and don't have an FFL, but once in a while a friend asks for (free) help with a problem. So I had a Colt 1917 (New Service) with a sticking trigger. The trigger pull on those guns is a bit stiff, but smooth, so the "hitch" was disconcerting.

Anyway, I found the usual suspects to be innocent. The hammer strut was fine, the trigger OK, the hand and ratchet normal. But the strut seemed to be too far back on the trigger. Finally, I had it. Someone in the past had decided to smooth up the rebound lever where it cams the hammer back, and took off too much metal. That let the top of the hammer sit forward more than it should, which put the strut back on the trigger until it was in almost a dead center position and wouldn't move on the trigger, hence the sticking trigger. For good measure, I also moved the strut engagement forward a bit.

Those rebound levers are not always available, so with the owner's permission, I stretched the old one. I thought that might mess up the position of the cylinder bolt cam, but that seems OK. Good, because that is one bad area to mess with.

So the 1917 now has a normal (awful) DA trigger pull. And I found another reason why messing with those guns is not a good idea.

Incidentally, I don't see anything on that in Kuhnhausen, but maybe I didn't look hard enough.

Jim

Dfariswheel · February 23, 2014, 07:04 PM

Kuhnhausen didn't put in too much on how to repair a butchered gun.

He wrote the shop manuals to teach the factory method of repairs, and back then, the factory method would have been to replace the part.
Since most Colt parts are getting impossible to find, especially New Service parts, we're going to have to learn methods of repairing parts that can't be replaced.

SIGSHR · February 23, 2014, 07:34 PM

On another board someone posed pictures of Mediaeval (probably Renaissance) gunsmiths at work, someone mentioned their modern day counterparts in the Khyber Pass area as their modern day counterparts doing great things with files and other handtools and a charcoal or wood-fired forge.
Anyone want a Broomhandle Mauser in 40 S&W ? Someone else said a frequent test in a machinist's course is to require a student to file a block of metal into a cube, using only hand tools-and to tight specifications. Our resident professionals can offer better advice than I can, but in my modest amount of "johnsmithing" I have found that patience is indeed a virtue.

Dixie Gunsmithing · February 24, 2014, 01:29 AM

A good gunsmith should be able to make a new part or build up the old with weld, and cut it back to dimensions. To make a new one, they need a print, or a part from a functioning model to get the dimensions from, which is very expensive, or to do a metal stretch or build up with weld metal, which is really a fit a try method until it works, but that is what Colt did, a lot of hand fitting of parts, anyhow.

One can find a huge number of scale drawings from LeeRoy Wisner's gun part drawings book. Also, there is Jack First, but they make the parts, and don't sell the drawings. I think Wisner's will make parts, too, but it's a long waiting list. Numrich has made a multitude of parts in the past, mainly barrels, but getting certain parts from them may be problematic.

All the parts internal to the old Colts could be fabricated, but it would take getting a drawing, or a working part to do it. The problem is, it is time consuming, and will the owner pay for the fix? If the part is still there, one is better to try an mend it.

Making a new part is generally done only for very expensive guns. Bob Dunlap showed an old palm pistol, which was missing some parts, in a video. According to him, it was worth making the new part. I also saw him thinking of doing the same for an old S&W top break, where I did catch him missing where a cylinder hand was supposed to mount, and where the spring went

Without something to go by, another gun, or a book, photo, etc, this can happen.

Sevens · February 24, 2014, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Since most Colt parts are getting impossible to find, especially New Service parts, we're going to have to learn methods of repairing parts that can't be replaced.

I hear this a lot. (okay, I'll be honest... Actually, I read this a lot!

)

It seems like there either is now, or one day certainly will be quite a business opportunity for someone to fabricate new replacement parts for Colt revolvers.

Colt made a lot of revolvers and it seems like many of them need tuning and parts fixes and replacements. It only seems rational that someone will invest the money to cater to this market. I'm not talking about an historic relic like a palm pistol... I'm talking about the hundreds of thousands of Colt revolvers. Maybe they don't ALL need help now, but more of them will as each day goes by.

Of course, I also believe that some guy with the money and drive to go head to head in competition with Starline is going to make a killing in brass production. Starline sells the stuff they make even before they make it. People beg them for this, that and the other thing and many are told "yeah, we'll make it one day when 500 other people ask for it also..." Whom truly competes with Starline? Scarch?! Nobody?

I hope some venture capitalist reads my post.

Dixie Gunsmithing · February 24, 2014, 01:52 AM

Sevens,

The opportunity is there, as some got into making Winchester model 70 parts. At one time, Numrich made replacement Win. model 12 and 97 barrels, even rifled barrels for other guns.

The problem with Colt, was that even though a part was made to a drawing, it had to be hand fitted, almost every single part. There would not be any way that a drop-in replacement could be made. The best that could be done, would be make the part over size, and state such, or make it close, and hope for the best. Then again, a close part is better than no part at all.

Sevens · February 24, 2014, 03:37 AM

And yet I furiously attempt to resist the urge to roll my eyeballs so fiercely almost to the point of popping freely from my skull every time folks wax nostalgic on anything and everything with the prancing horse on it. As if there is Colt... and then there is nothing... and far below Colt, and far below nothing, is every other gun ever made.

Sorry. I get sidetracked. I will say that I absolutely love my two Woodsman variants and the one '28 Woodsman that I had to send away, I loved that one also.

James K · February 24, 2014, 08:41 PM

The big advantage of the modern S&W action is that each part has one function or a few obvious ones; if the function doesn't work, you know what part to replace. But in those old Colts, a single part, like the rebound lever, can perform several functions, and often all but one will work OK. The rebound lever itself is a classic. It causes the hammer to rebound, cams the tail of the cylinder locking bolt, gives tension to the hand, and effects trigger return. Four major functions, done with one part. Now that might seem good design. In fact, it is terrible because with so much done by one part, any problem with that part can cause failure of more than one function, making trouble shooting difficult.

Jim

Dixie Gunsmithing · February 24, 2014, 10:23 PM

Jim,

It just like connecting light bulbs in series, when one goes out, they all do.

Clark · February 25, 2014, 01:36 AM

Here is a guy that changed his Python trigger
http://www.coltforum.com/forums/colt...arge-pics.html

Dfariswheel · February 25, 2014, 06:22 PM

To add to James K's rebound function complications, the rebound is also the hammer block safety.
Virtually every part in the old Colt action performs at least two or more functions, usually not related to each other.

Change something HERE, and totally unexpected things happen over THERE.

James K · February 25, 2014, 08:03 PM

Like the S&W rebound lever and slide, it was originally believed that the Colt rebound lever would act as a hammer block safety. It was found pretty quickly that it wouldn't. Not only could the hammer break, but the hammer pin could shear and there was enough flexibility in the rebound lever system that the gun could fire if dropped on the hammer. That was when Colt developed its excellent "positive" safety system which imposes a very solid block between the hammer and frame unless the trigger is held back. It worked well and Colt was so proud of it that they added the word "positive" to model names to indicate that the gun had the hammer block safety.

S&W was not so fortunate. While they installed not one but three different hammer block safety systems, the third type notably failed in a Navy-issue revolver, killing a sailor. All depended on a spring to move the safety into the blocking position. A complete change to the system resulted in the current hammer block safety, which is very positive and not dependent on a spring.

Jim

February 23, 2014, 02:27 PM	#1
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Colts On a number of occasions, discussions on this site have turned to the complexity of the old DA Colt design and the difficult of working with it. As you may know, I don't do professional gunsmithing any more, and don't have an FFL, but once in a while a friend asks for (free) help with a problem. So I had a Colt 1917 (New Service) with a sticking trigger. The trigger pull on those guns is a bit stiff, but smooth, so the "hitch" was disconcerting. Anyway, I found the usual suspects to be innocent. The hammer strut was fine, the trigger OK, the hand and ratchet normal. But the strut seemed to be too far back on the trigger. Finally, I had it. Someone in the past had decided to smooth up the rebound lever where it cams the hammer back, and took off too much metal. That let the top of the hammer sit forward more than it should, which put the strut back on the trigger until it was in almost a dead center position and wouldn't move on the trigger, hence the sticking trigger. For good measure, I also moved the strut engagement forward a bit. Those rebound levers are not always available, so with the owner's permission, I stretched the old one. I thought that might mess up the position of the cylinder bolt cam, but that seems OK. Good, because that is one bad area to mess with. So the 1917 now has a normal (awful) DA trigger pull. And I found another reason why messing with those guns is not a good idea. Incidentally, I don't see anything on that in Kuhnhausen, but maybe I didn't look hard enough. Jim

February 24, 2014, 03:37 AM	#7
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	And yet I furiously attempt to resist the urge to roll my eyeballs so fiercely almost to the point of popping freely from my skull every time folks wax nostalgic on anything and everything with the prancing horse on it. As if there is Colt... and then there is nothing... and far below Colt, and far below nothing, is every other gun ever made. Sorry. I get sidetracked. I will say that I absolutely love my two Woodsman variants and the one '28 Woodsman that I had to send away, I loved that one also. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

February 25, 2014, 01:36 AM	#10
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	Here is a guy that changed his Python trigger http://www.coltforum.com/forums/colt...arge-pics.html __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

February 23, 2014, 07:04 PM	#2
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	Kuhnhausen didn't put in too much on how to repair a butchered gun. He wrote the shop manuals to teach the factory method of repairs, and back then, the factory method would have been to replace the part. Since most Colt parts are getting impossible to find, especially New Service parts, we're going to have to learn methods of repairing parts that can't be replaced.

February 23, 2014, 07:34 PM	#3
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	On another board someone posed pictures of Mediaeval (probably Renaissance) gunsmiths at work, someone mentioned their modern day counterparts in the Khyber Pass area as their modern day counterparts doing great things with files and other handtools and a charcoal or wood-fired forge. Anyone want a Broomhandle Mauser in 40 S&W ? Someone else said a frequent test in a machinist's course is to require a student to file a block of metal into a cube, using only hand tools-and to tight specifications. Our resident professionals can offer better advice than I can, but in my modest amount of "johnsmithing" I have found that patience is indeed a virtue.

February 24, 2014, 01:29 AM	#4
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	A good gunsmith should be able to make a new part or build up the old with weld, and cut it back to dimensions. To make a new one, they need a print, or a part from a functioning model to get the dimensions from, which is very expensive, or to do a metal stretch or build up with weld metal, which is really a fit a try method until it works, but that is what Colt did, a lot of hand fitting of parts, anyhow. One can find a huge number of scale drawings from LeeRoy Wisner's gun part drawings book. Also, there is Jack First, but they make the parts, and don't sell the drawings. I think Wisner's will make parts, too, but it's a long waiting list. Numrich has made a multitude of parts in the past, mainly barrels, but getting certain parts from them may be problematic. All the parts internal to the old Colts could be fabricated, but it would take getting a drawing, or a working part to do it. The problem is, it is time consuming, and will the owner pay for the fix? If the part is still there, one is better to try an mend it. Making a new part is generally done only for very expensive guns. Bob Dunlap showed an old palm pistol, which was missing some parts, in a video. According to him, it was worth making the new part. I also saw him thinking of doing the same for an old S&W top break, where I did catch him missing where a cylinder hand was supposed to mount, and where the spring went Without something to go by, another gun, or a book, photo, etc, this can happen.

February 24, 2014, 01:52 AM	#6
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	Sevens, The opportunity is there, as some got into making Winchester model 70 parts. At one time, Numrich made replacement Win. model 12 and 97 barrels, even rifled barrels for other guns. The problem with Colt, was that even though a part was made to a drawing, it had to be hand fitted, almost every single part. There would not be any way that a drop-in replacement could be made. The best that could be done, would be make the part over size, and state such, or make it close, and hope for the best. Then again, a close part is better than no part at all.

February 24, 2014, 08:41 PM	#8
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The big advantage of the modern S&W action is that each part has one function or a few obvious ones; if the function doesn't work, you know what part to replace. But in those old Colts, a single part, like the rebound lever, can perform several functions, and often all but one will work OK. The rebound lever itself is a classic. It causes the hammer to rebound, cams the tail of the cylinder locking bolt, gives tension to the hand, and effects trigger return. Four major functions, done with one part. Now that might seem good design. In fact, it is terrible because with so much done by one part, any problem with that part can cause failure of more than one function, making trouble shooting difficult. Jim

February 24, 2014, 10:23 PM	#9
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	Jim, It just like connecting light bulbs in series, when one goes out, they all do.

February 25, 2014, 06:22 PM	#11
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	To add to James K's rebound function complications, the rebound is also the hammer block safety. Virtually every part in the old Colt action performs at least two or more functions, usually not related to each other. Change something HERE, and totally unexpected things happen over THERE.

February 25, 2014, 08:03 PM	#12
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Like the S&W rebound lever and slide, it was originally believed that the Colt rebound lever would act as a hammer block safety. It was found pretty quickly that it wouldn't. Not only could the hammer break, but the hammer pin could shear and there was enough flexibility in the rebound lever system that the gun could fire if dropped on the hammer. That was when Colt developed its excellent "positive" safety system which imposes a very solid block between the hammer and frame unless the trigger is held back. It worked well and Colt was so proud of it that they added the word "positive" to model names to indicate that the gun had the hammer block safety. S&W was not so fortunate. While they installed not one but three different hammer block safety systems, the third type notably failed in a Navy-issue revolver, killing a sailor. All depended on a spring to move the safety into the blocking position. A complete change to the system resulted in the current hammer block safety, which is very positive and not dependent on a spring. Jim