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Old January 8, 2019, 02:26 PM   #1
schotzfyred
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Whatever happened to:

.....the .17 Mach IV, .17/222, 17/223, 17 Remington Fireball, 218 Bee, 219 Donaldson Wasp, 219 Zipper, the 4,000 fps 220 Swift, 257 Roberts etc.
The Remington XP100 bolt action handgun in 221 Remington Fireball ?
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Old January 8, 2019, 03:56 PM   #2
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Okay, I’ll bite. All those chamberings are still available in commercial or custom arms. Not top-sellers today to be sure, that’s why they are semi-moribund. Ditto the XP, no justifiable market.

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Old January 8, 2019, 04:12 PM   #3
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There's a market for all of them; it just isn't big enough to be economically viable for any of the big boys to continue with in production. My XP-100 in 7mmBR was a tack driver.
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Old January 8, 2019, 04:43 PM   #4
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lest we forget the 5mm remington mag or is it too still in production?
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Old January 9, 2019, 03:37 AM   #5
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Quote:
.17/222, 17/223
These are wildcat cartridges and are offered in custom rifles.
Quote:
17 Remington Fireball
I picked up a 700 in 17 Fireball in a trade a couple of years ago. Shot it, it was OK. Sold it. But I have customers who love it for varminting.
Quote:
218 Bee
I have 2 of them. Ammo is still produced. Not enough oomph to make it stand out against the newer offerings.
Quote:
218 Bee, 219 Donaldson Wasp, 219 Zipper, the 4,000 fps 220 Swift, 257 Roberts
Cartridges from the 1930s don't have much market appeal. You don't see those cartridges very often for the same reasons as above.
Quote:
The Remington XP100 bolt action handgun in 221 Remington Fireball
The XP-100 was produced for almost 50 years. That's a long time for any design. There was never a lot of demand for them except from target and silhouette shooters. They were also produced in 223, 7-08, 7BR, 308 and others for hunters. For the last 10 or so years of its production, it was a Custom Shop offering. Handgun hunting is a pretty uncommon thing, and it's hard for an industrial company to make money making toys for just a few people.
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lest we forget the 5mm remington mag
The 591/592 rifles in 5mm Remington Rimfire Magnum were introduced in 1970 and discontinued in 1974. Ammo was produced until 1980-ish. Again, no demand, no market, no production. It developed a cult-like following in a very short time, I am amazed Remington couldn't make it work. Aguila made some ammo a few years ago, I haven't heard if they are going to do another run. Pity, the 5mm RRM had everything going for it except Remington.
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Old January 9, 2019, 05:20 AM   #6
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I've seen a couple Savages for sale in 222 Rem this past year.

The others i haven't seen much. Of course they are calibers that i personally don't hold much interest in buying. Hence i'm not looking for them.

The 257 Roberts is still available as a standard chambering in the Kimber Hunter.
I picked up a Ruger 77 MKII in 257 Roberts about 2 years ago.
Love the rifle and the cartridge.
I'm not sure if Ruger still carrys it in their 77 Hawkeye or not.

The 220 Swift was pretty much replaced with the 22-250.
Aside from that, and some still shooting Savage Model 99s you don't see much of the 250-3000.
I got a super deal from E.R. Shaw on a 24" Savage barrel chambered in 250. Screwed it onto my Stevens 200. Shooting slightly elevated pressures (+P) it absolutely loves the 115gr Berger VLD.

Try finding a 257 Kimber sometime. And the rifle that shoots it.
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Old January 9, 2019, 07:53 AM   #7
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Replaced by a whole other group of cartridges that will similarly fade away with time.
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Old January 9, 2019, 11:45 AM   #8
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I bought a Ruger 77 Mk II chambered for 7x57mm last year.
When I picked it up from the LGS, a couple employees looked at me like I was completely insane and one counter monkey, err... clerk, actually made a comment about how 'old, slow, and obsolete' it was, before mumbling something about 'seven mag'.
The shop owner and I cracked smiles, ignoring the poor, poor fellow that has been eaten up by modern marketing.

-----

They're still around.
They just don't get much discussion - especially in print.


I'm building a .17-223 upper for my varmint AR, right now. Yet another wildcat to feel out and dial in in a semi-auto. You'd think I'd learn my lesson eventually...
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Old January 9, 2019, 02:59 PM   #9
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They used to sleeve XP.

https://www.gunauction.com/buy/8554580

When I first started BR that's what lot used and I had one.
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Old January 9, 2019, 07:32 PM   #10
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Quote:
I bought a Ruger 77 Mk II chambered for 7x57mm last year
It's about time somebody besides me started shooting that
Quote:
'old, slow, and obsolete'
piece of junk. I own 5 rifles chambered in 7X57, i've tried others but I keep coming back to it.
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Old January 9, 2019, 08:43 PM   #11
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257 Roberts got crammed into a short action which did it no favors.
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Old January 9, 2019, 09:36 PM   #12
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Quote:
It's about time somebody besides me started shooting that
Quote:
'old, slow, and obsolete'
piece of junk. I own 5 rifles chambered in 7X57, i've tried others but I keep coming back to it.
Most of my family respects the cartridge, but never really wanted to buy a rifle chambered for it. Yet...
When my family found out about the 77 Mk II, I was instantly bombarded with, "If you ever want to sell it..."
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Old January 10, 2019, 01:08 AM   #13
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When my family found out about the 77 Mk II, I was instantly bombarded with, "If you ever want to sell it..."
Yeah, I get that too. Not just my Ruger 77, but my pre-war Model 70, my Mark X Mauser, my DuMoulin 98, my Rem 700, all in 7X57. I hear it all the time, "Where did you find that? That is so cool. I always wanted one". Yep, they always wanted one, that's why they bought 30-06s and 270s and 7mm Mags, etc. Now they want mine . . .
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Old January 10, 2019, 09:28 AM   #14
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When you mention rounds like 222 Remington, 257 Roberts, 6.5x55 Swede, and 7x57 Mauser going away, I have to ask what are things coming to?

The last 3 are a bit related to no med length actions like European manufacturers went with. US went big, then small.

In reality, the ideal USA hunting round is likely a 25-7mm bullet, in a .473-.480 medium length case with a sharp 40 deg shoulder, shooting a little mg for caliber bullet at 2800-3100 fps. 6.5x55, 6.5-06, 270 win, 280 Ackley are all in the ball park.
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Old January 10, 2019, 09:44 AM   #15
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Don’t let my 220 Swift hear all that badmouthing. I load 55 gr Nosler BT and 55 gr Sierra GK over IMR 4064, to about 3850 FPS. No doubt I could load 40 gr Nosler BT’s to 4200 or so if I wanted to. No doubt the 22-250 won the popularity fight, but it will forever remain second best (unless you go AI).
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Old January 11, 2019, 01:42 AM   #16
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not quite

"All those chamberings are still available...."

Well, maybe. If you have enough dough, a custom 'smith can make near anything I suppose, but there's not much sense to do so, and I doubt if anybody specializes in turning out , Wasps, Zippers or Bees, though with a rimmed case, they would make an interesting single shot rifle ctg. I think the Wasp was a wildcat/handload proposition only cartridge, even when it was popular, but I could be wrong. But commercial, mass produced rifles in those calibers are not out there. The Bee was periodically being loaded by one of the big 3 ammo companies, but seems like I read recently that it was now completely discontinued. The .22 Hornet, on the other hand, keeps hanging on.

Regards the 5mm RFM. The South American firm of Aguila reintroduced the 5mm RFM in 2008, and ammo hit the market again reasonably priced. (I bought a case) But it did not last long, only a few years, before those new cartridges disappeared. Recently Aguila has stated that 5mm ammo will again be available. Priced higher than the 2008 releases, at least it's back, or its claimed, will be.

The 5mm did not fly for two basic reasons in my mind. For one thing, the cartridge was before its time, and the .22 Mag was all the rimfire mag anybody wanted. Perhaps more importantly, nobody but Remington ever made any firearms in the chambering. And Rem 591 and 592 rifles were basically budget rimfires, as a rule with lousy triggers and pencil thin barrels.
T/C was supposedly going to make barrels for their Contender single shot pistol, though I've never seen one. And the upstart Kimber was supposedly going to make a quality bolt sporter, but it never happened.

Contrast that with when the .17 HRM hit the market, EVERYBODY started making rifles AND revolvers in that hot rimfire, and the public is STILL buying them.

One vintage cartridge I'll add to the "what happened" list, is the .256 Win Magnum. Formed from the .357 revolver case, necked to .25, with tons of .357 brass out there to support the cartridge, you'd think it might have flown. But Marlin, I think, was the only maker that did a rifle, the Levermatic, and Ruger's single shot pistol, the Hawkeye, flopped too. I'd have like to seen that number in a Ruger No3 single shot carbine, and a mid priced but accurate bolt rifle like the Rem 788, but it never happened, and the .256 died too.
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Old January 11, 2019, 09:49 AM   #17
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I picked up a Remington 700 chambered in 221 Fireball several years back and haven't seen another one since. What a fun gun to shoot. It's definitely a handloader's round and new powders put its performance right on the heels of a 223. Accuracy is superb and there are lots of bullet choices available. I like the Nosler 40 grain Ballistic Tips.

Via the Fireball!!!
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Old January 12, 2019, 04:08 PM   #18
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You mean Viva... Lol

Hmmm, i may have to keep my eyes open for a 7X57 MKII...
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Old January 15, 2019, 03:46 PM   #19
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I've owned several of the listed cartridges and firearms. A 700 in .17 Fireball, a 100 XP in 221 Fireball, a 220 Swift and two different Rem 591 in 5mm Mag. All have gone down the road long time back. Usually to someone that wanted to pay more for them than it was worth.
But, my desire for old, (so-called) obsolete cartridges didn't stop with those. I've got a 6.5x55, a 358 Winchester and my latest, a Newton 1st edition in 256 Newton.
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Old January 15, 2019, 04:45 PM   #20
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I've had or do have most of those guns myself. I saw a really neat little custom carbine sporter in 221 Rem. It was built on a Fireball action and had a heavy barrel. It was stocked
kinda futuristic with barrel not touching or even surrounding the barre. That was only reason I didn't dicker for it. Didn't need it anyway. What we could use is some like the 218,
256win and some other smaller cartridges. Seems like today they only make Hyper Vel small bores, big magnums or something they can adapt to AR. The 5.7 FN pistol round would be good in a small rifle. I think some small cartridges would be popular. Better than a 22 RF and reloadable. Good rifles in 25/20, 32/20, 218 ect don't last long. A BA in 30 carbine would be another good choice.
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