Colt 1849 Pocket cap and ball anyone? Baby Dragoon?

[r010159]

Hello all!

This is my first post to this forum. I have been collecting cap and ball pistols for some time now. I have decided to specialize in Colt 1849 Pocket pistols and their variations. Back a couple months ago at auction, I purchased a rare variant called the Wells Fargo. Just recently I purchased a cased 1849 Pocket that was made in 1860. This purchase set me back allot of money. When I got it in for inspection, it turned out to be a pistol worth a thousand dollars less. The condition of the finish wasn't anywhere near as good as what was in the photos of the pistol. The same seller has a Baby Dragoon for sale that was one of the initial first 180 made in its first year of production in 1847. I have always been attracted to the Baby Dragoon. It is the closest so I can get to the pistol I really want to have, which is a second model Dragoon military pistol in good shape. The full-sized Colt Dragoon would've set me back over $13,000.

This particular Baby Dragoon is a rare version of the Pocket style pistols. I think this variant of the Baby Dragoon is rarer still. The finish is at least at 70%. I am thinking that this in itself is unusual. It is mechanically sound and in physically "Fine" shape except for a shortened safety pin. It also comes in its own case with accompanying accoutrements that are for the most part in good condition. The black powder flask is a period replacement of the original. What makes this pistol even more attractive to me is that it is inscribed with the name of a Civil War soldier.. Someone appraiser has done research on this individual and published a paper that describes the different battles that this individual was involved in. So I am thinking of sending back my 1849 Pocket for this 1848 Baby Dragoon.

I would like all of your opinion on this decision of mine to be made. The 1849 Pocket is not rare at all. This particular Baby Dragoon is rare. I think the provenance that comes with this pistol is just icing on the cake. But it cost $2000 more. I know this is allot of money to some of you. It is allot of money to me. But this has turned out to be a real passion of mine. I first started out collecting various revolvers and rifles on my list that I have been compiling for the past 10 years. It was a small list. Now I have started collecting some of Colts fine percussion pistols. Collecting all the variations of the 1849 Pockets should keep me busy for some time now, and also help keep my bank account empty.

Are there any cap and ball afficianados here? Does anyone collect specifically Colt percussion revolvers? I have always had a lot of respect for Colt firearms. This is why I have decided to focus on collecting them now. I'm hoping to find a few members of the forum here that also collect them. But I invite anyone to provide me their thoughts on my decision to be made. That additional $2000 will be a lot more money to me, but it still may be worthwhile investment.

Bob

[kilimanjaro]

We collect because we enjoy it, any financial reward is icing on the cake.

Me, I would just finance the new pistol with existing funds, then not purchase anything for a year, but the 1849 Pocket would go by the board for a rarity, especially if you think it was puffed in description and price.

You may be able to buy the same 1849 Pocket next year.

Do check the provenance carefully.

Not a collector of these, but just a collector.

[r010159]

Wise words. I think I will go for the Baby Dragoon. I will be able to find the 1849 Pocket next year.

Bob

[Hawg]

Just my two cents but I would be very careful before shelling out 2 grand on provenance. Just because a real soldiers name is on it doesn't mean he had it put on there. FWIW the Wells Fargo is a misnomer. It just refers to the models with no loading lever. Wells Fargo never bought any.

[McShooty]

Let me see if I understand this. You purchased an 1849 from a person who apparently misrepresented the condition of the gun. Now you are thinking of getting a more interesting piece from the same seller, and you will have to lay out an additional $2000 for it, based on provenance from the seller who misrepresented the original 1849. Is that about right? There is nothing in the provenance you describe that could not be easily faked. I would keep the 1849 if all serial numbers matched and chalk the transaction up to experience. I would run the other way on the Baby Dragoon. Then I would do all I could to learn more about verifying the condition and provenance of antique arms.

[James K]

I have the same thoughts as McShooty. "Enhanced" descriptions are all too common in internet sales, with both antique and modern guns (and everything else). That does not mean the gun is a fake, but if a seller fibs about condition, he becomes suspect in other areas. With guns like the Baby Dragoon and the Wells Fargo, fakes are very common, with fake cases and fake accouterments to go along with them, so the buyer had better know what he is doing.

All else being the same, the Type 1 Baby Dragoon will bring near double what a Wells Fargo will bring, but I recommend having an X-ray handy when you get the gun.

I admit to ignorance on cases and accoutrements. At a recent gun show, I spent 20 minutes listening to an expert on Colt cases and that is a whole different field.

Good luck in your collecting; collector Colts should outstrip the stock market by a lot in the coming years.

Jim

[r010159]

The seller did not misrepresent the firearm. I just find photos usually do not accurately portray what the firearm would look like in person. I am referring to its finish. I am returning the Pocket for a full refund if I need to do this. This was also part of my negotiation with him. The Baby Dragoon could be returned also for any reason. Also I am not assessing value based on the provenance. I just see that as an attractive "icing on the cake". I still have to learn about the source of the report that links the pistol to the individual described by one of the earlier owners who went to an appraiser for this information.

Now I do understand that Babys are faked where the ones with rammers are faked by far the most. I have not seen any for sale that did not look very suspicous to me. But the ones without rammers can be faked too. I have taken a critical eye to the Baby Dragoon for sale. Actually it was up for auction a few years ago by James Julia and had been vetted by their firearms expert. I also have been able to determine a history of ownership. So I have multiple sources of information to rely on. I also will need to examine the Baby Dragoon all the way down to its component parts. I have been researching the Baby Dragoon using leading texts on the subject for a few months now. So by carefully examining and analizing the Baby Dragoon during its money back inspection period, I should be able to mitigate the risks involved. But there will always be that chance I may end up with a fake. After all, I am no expert at this.

Yes, I am taking a potentially significant risk. But this opportunity needs to be considered by me as long as the seller abides by what I have negotiated with him. If there is any hesitation on his part, or anything suspicious to me, I will keep the Pocket and mark it up to experience. I am just trying to consider the additional value that I will get by spending the extra moniey, and then determine if this makes it a worthwhile purchase.

I have already seen adequate number of photos detailing its specifics. So at this point, if I choose to do so, I am ready to proceed to the next step. I still have to negotiate him down on his price as a way of my further mitigation of the risks involved with purchasing an antique firearm with provenance. I am offering a bid $3,500 less than his original asking price. My previous negotiation with him has lead me to believe that he may accept my offer. Then I will have my decision to make.

Bob Graham

UPDATE: I have negotiated him down $3600 from his original asking price. He also will absorb the shipping costs from both the shipping of this 1849 Pocket and the future shipment of the Baby Dragoon. It helped that I know how much he had paid for it. I still have this important decision to make. I will take until the weekend to decide. Please feel free to comment.

"Life is an adventure. Enjoy the ride."

[r010159]

FWIW I have successfully returned the 1849 Pocket. The Baby Dragoon is being shipped to me this Saturday. The SN is 171, which is an earlier version of this classic Pocket type percussion revolver. I will post pics when it arrives. It comes in its own case. I have negotiated much of the provenance out of the price. There is still allot of documentation coming with the revolver. I will go over all of this very carefully.

Bob

[deerslayer303]

You really should post this thread in the black powder amd cowboy action shooting section. You will get way more replies, thoughts. Etc. Congrats on you new acquisition.

[r010159]

Thanks.

[Jbar4Ranch]

I've had several, both original and repros. The top one was plowed up in a field on my grandfather's homestead around 1941 about 3 miles from where I presently live. He was pulling weeds out of a plugged up rod weeder, and this came out with the weeds. Digging around a bit more with his hands, he also found the broken off backstrap. The gun is still loaded and has a completely intact cap on one nipple, as well as the remains on two others. It hung on the wall of the house for many years and one day someone noticed it had something scratched into the butt. Under magnification, it reads, "C Smith April 29 1861". With the advent of computer data bases, I have been able to locate three pieces of correspondence at the University of Utah's manuscript library from a C Smith to his boss, Nat Stein, all dated 1865. The signature on the letters is a spot on match to the scribing on the gun butt, and it is absolutely certain it is the same man. Nat Stein was a vice president of Overland Express, and it appears C Smith was a traveling agent in charge of at least three road stations in present day southwest Montana. The gun was likely lost on the trail to or from Fort Benton, and was found a couple hundred yards off a known route to the fort from points south.

[r010159]

Amazing! Simply amazing. Thank you for sharing.