Help with an Argument on "knock down" power

[briandg]

Perhaps the myth is the idea that it is the bullet that knocks down a live target.

Well, yeah, that's been said. No bullet "knocks down" any living target.

Causing that target to fall isn't the same thing, right?

[briandg]

Wikipedia entry on tko

The TKOF has no physical meaning or scientific basis and is strictly used as a figure of merit for comparing cartridges. Its main advantage is the ability to attempt to represent complex terminal ballistics as a number. This can be utilized to assign different wounding capabilities to projectiles in video games.

Each figure of merit weighs the cartridge characteristics differently. Some methods are based on fundamental physics (e.g. kinetic energy), while other methods are based on heuristic methods. Some of the more common figures of merit are:kinetic energy: favors high velocity, lower mass bullets (no diameter dependence)
momentum: favors moderate velocity, moderate mass bullets (no diameter dependence)
TKOF: favors large diameter, moderate velocity, heavy bullets
Thorniley Stopping Power: favors moderate diameter, moderate velocity, moderate mass bullets

None of these methods truly consider bullet construction, with the exception of TKO, which dealt mainly with solid bullets. An expanding bullet, for example, may have better "stopping" power over another design, due to its increased wound channel as the jacket opens, even though it may be traveling at a lower velocity. Just as a large diameter solid, at low velocity may have better "stopping" power, due to its deep penetration, than a small diameter hollowpoint at max velocity.

John taylor was an african big game hunter who probably never did any actual research into or put a lot of thought into the more common shooting events that involve human beings.

[hgmeyer]

Originally Posted by David R

My father told me if I got hit in the hand with a 45, with my arm extended, it would spin me around.

I am now 57 and do not believe that.

David

I will offer your dad some fine Pheonix waterfront property. Now, he is right about one concept he is trying to convey, a .45 does "work very well for it's intended purpose. My raggedy old a-- is here today because it works as intended. It just does!

I arrive at that opinion based on armchair research and scaredy as check experience. I guess everything I learned in research I proved in the "field.

[b.thomas]

hickok45 on knockdown power.............
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MPSDjJQIv4

[Sharkbite]

hickok45 on knockdown power.............

Ahhhh ok...? Kinda cool if youve never seen that kinda thing before.

He freely admits that shooting steel plates has no relevance to SD shooting. I think that (shooting plates and pins and the like) is where the “knockdown power” stuff got its foothold.

Back in the day pin shooters used calibers that where more likly to move the bowling pin off the table. Big heavy bullets moved the pins better, so thats what we shot. It was a natural conclusion that those same calibers were best for anti-people use as well.

Same with plate racks (to an extent). A hit wasnt good enough... you had to knock the plate over. A low hit with a light bullet might not do it. So heavy bullets ruled.

Poeple arent plates or pins and the bullet does not behave the same on impact. Hard vs. Soft media. Watch some gel tests (lots on utube) in most tests the block just wiggles

[Cheapshooter]

. I think that (shooting plates and pins and the like) is where the “knockdown power” stuff got its foothold

Probably more like Hollywood with people flying across the room, and out of windows when shot. like most other gun fantasy they have created.

[Sharkbite]

Never let facts get in the way of a good movie plot

[Tennessee Gentleman]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

f it isn't the bullet, then, what is it??

Seriously, if it isn't the size, weight, speed, momentum, or any other factor of the bullet (no matter which formulae are used), then what is it that "knocks" them down??

Perhaps the myth is the idea that it is the bullet that knocks down a live target.

Physiological and psychological things do that. The difference between being knocked down and falling down.

[Tennessee Gentleman]

Another interesting thing. I was looking for the 9mm report the FBI did in 2014 and called my local PD. They said they could not release it to civilians. However, they would answer any question I posed to them.

[mehavey]

Maybe embedded here?
https://www.ammoland.com/2017/08/fbi...#axzz57JYBx6Sw

[Tennessee Gentleman]

There are 50 more pages. That is the executive summary. The 50 page background is what I want.

[briandg]

You can get it through an FOIA act petition. Figure out what documents you need.

[moosemike]

People claim all sorts of amazing things for the 45 ACP. Once you see it bounce off a propane tank you realize they are wrong.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I saw one bounce off a big truck tire and hit a guy in the chest - for a big bruise. The tire was unimpressed.

Are we convinced that handgun rounds don't physically move you as to knock you over. If folks fall over, it is a combination of factors but not that?

[briandg]

that's really kind of funny. bouncing off of a tire. A guy I know reports this story, he was firing a cap and ball, put his target against a tree, and bounced the ball back into his knee cap.

[rock185]

Wish that term "Knockdown power" was not in such wide use. Guess I've just heard too many Gun shop Commandos throwing the term around when describing their favorite cartridge. I realize that Mr. Potterfield is a very successful business man. I order from Midway and have enjoyed some of Mr. Potterfield's videos. I understand what Mr. Potterfield is trying to convey, but think his use of the term is imprecise.
Perhaps, something like "stop the the threat with one well placed shot" might be more consistent with reality....
In any case, I know of someone who was shot through the torso at very close range with a .44 Magnum 240 grain JSP from a 7 1/2" .44 Magnum. He was not "Knocked down". This incident did not involve the vaunted .45 ACP, but I suspect that any advantage in being able to knock a person down, were it possible to do so, would go to the .44 Mag........ymmv

[briandg]

I think that it's rather amusing to watch the westerns, and when a guy is shot he sort of stiffens and crumples. Every time, the same thing. there has to be some sort of meaning to that...

[JohnKSa]

In any case, I know of someone who was shot through the torso at very close range with a .44 Magnum 240 grain JSP from a 7 1/2" .44 Magnum. He was not "Knocked down".

I can't remember the source now (maybe one of Ayoob's articles in American Handgunner) but I remember reading an article about a police shooting that drove the point home.

Both cops were armed with similarly hot handloaded .44 Special (along the line of one of Elmer Keith's loadings) in large frame revolvers. Performance from both guns was reported to be on a par with lighter .44 mag loadings. The cops were gun-nuts and practiced and reloaded together. The result was that they were both excellent shooters.

They were called to a disturbance at a bar and arrived to find the focus of the call leaving the premises. As he exited the bar, he saw the cops and removed a gun from the paper bag he was carrying.

Both cops drew and emptied their guns, hitting him 11 times center of mass in less than 5 seconds (the two cops had a lifelong friendly disagreement on who missed a shot). The ex-disturbance fell FORWARD and expired promptly.

If 11 rounds of near .44mag won't knock a person down, I'm not sure what will.

[briandg]

The twelfth round would have done it, would be the hotly stated retort.

[44 AMP]

If 11 rounds of near .44mag won't knock a person down, I'm not sure what will.

While I've never tested it, I've always felt that a COM hit from a 90mm recoilless rifle would probably do it...

[briandg]

The video of the .50 bmg that failed to knock a disposable cup over truly impressed me. Obviously, that rifle had no knock down power.

I tend to forget that there can be even more complicating factors such as the amount of resistance that the target provides. The videos of people shooting gummy bears are interesting.

[Ruger45LC]

It's simple really, knock down power implies that it has enough energy to physically knock somebody down. I've got news for your friend, nothing you can shoot (handgun, rifle or shotgun) will physically knock down an adult. Now, if you hit the CNS of a bad guy, they may go down very quick, but that's due to their body shutting down, not the bullet itself physically knocking them down.

[JohnKSa]

...I've always felt that a COM hit from a 90mm recoilless rifle would probably do it...

I don't think they make a handgun version.

[pete2]

I don't know about "knockdown" power but in my experience a deer shot with the .270 falls down faster than one shot with the .243. I've shot quite a few with both calibers, they go down faster with the bigger bullet. Note the .243 goes a couple hundred fps faster than the .270.

With a handgun, I don't know. I do know that on steel plates the .45 will knock the plate down way more forcefully than a .38 or 9 mm but that's not the same as in soft tissue. More damage from a larger bullet would cause more bleeding tho.

[1911_Hardball]

There's only one thing to keep in mind regarding "knockdown power"; and that is that there is no such thing.